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America will split into two societies - those who demand a yearly injection (and who knows what else) in exchange for access to basic goods and services, and th

America will split into two societies - those who demand a yearly injection (and who knows what else) in exchange for access to basic goods and services, and those who do not. The ones who do not will gather in their own towns, cities, and states where this freedom is respected, and secured by militias. I will be in that latter society. Or civil war. Also possible.

josho 5y ago
I haven't spoken to an anti-vaxxer yet. Those that I've seen in the media have been completely irrational (5g/bill gates theories). So, I'm looking forward to learning from a rational person what their motivations are. What are your reasons to refuse a vaccine? Weren't you vaccinated as a child for polio & chicken pox? Why is this vaccine a hill to die on? Thanks.
- marexv 5y ago
  Those vaccines were properly tested. These vaccines were developed hastily. In Europe they are still treated as test vaccines, so you have to sign a paper and take the full responsibility for any side effects. I've gotten this far without infection although I was exposed. I have decided I just don't wan't to risk it. Also I am prepared to give up my access to ICU if that is what it takes for gov to leave me alone, as far as I see, taking up beds is the biggest issue. There are some other reasons, but those are purely related to political situation in my homeland.
  - europeancitizen 5y ago
    > In Europe they are still treated as test vaccines, so you have to sign a paper and take the full responsibility for any side effects. This is not true. They got emergency authorization, but had to go through the same test phases as with normal authorization and will eventually get full authorization. This is not really different than in the USA and does not make it a 'test vaccine'. Also I was vaccinated in the EU and I did not have to sign any papers or 'take full responsibility for any side effects' in any way, nor did anyone else I know that was vaccinated in the EU. This may be the case in your country (I'd be interested to know which country that is), but it is certainly not a EU wide requirement.
- edot 5y ago
  I’m vaccinated, but against this vaccine mandate. My proposed method is this: 1) If you want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. 2) If you don’t, don’t. 3) If you go to the hospital with a COVID infection, your care is covered by insurance if you are vaccinated. If you are not, your care is not covered by insurance. This allows people to make decisions about their bodies, while also fending off the two main arguments I see for why everyone should be vaccinated. Those arguments are: 1) Unvaccinated people are hosts for mutations which can break through vaccines. Since we are already going to be doing yearly updates to this vaccine a la flu vaccines, this is not a concern to those who want to be vaccinated as they will get fresh protection each year. 2) Hospital beds are being filled with COVID patients, thus blocking people with e.g. heart attacks, car crash injuries etc. from getting care. With my plan, the unvaccinated will be disincentivized to go to the hospital to get COVID care, thus freeing these beds up. Again, this respects personal choices. But forcing people to do something to their body? Not cool with me. Also not logically consistent with being pro-choice, which most of my pro-mandate (anti-choice) friends are.
  - leesalminen 5y ago
    To quote our vice-president, "The right of women to make decisions about their own bodies is not negotiable. The right of women to make decisions about their own bodies is their decision, it is their body."
    - julianlam 5y ago
      However, being pregnant does not cause other people to become pregnant against their will.
      - leesalminen 5y ago
        However, voluntarily ending pregnancy can cause fathers to-be to lose their child to-be against their will. We've decided that's OK, because the right of an individual over their body supersedes the rights of others with tangential impacts.
      - cheeseomlit 5y ago
- ctrlp 5y ago
  Not every anti-mandate person is a anti-vax. Government mandates are a political issue. Depending on the country and its laws, some believe mandates are illegal and constitute government tyranny. They may value rule by law or autonomy over their bodies. They may choose to receive vaccine but don't want to be 'forced to choose'. Not every anti-covid-vax person is anti-other-vax. The mRNA vaccine is novel. Many believe its long-term safety profile is TBD. They think comparing vaccines with decades of safety data to ones with months is apples to oranges. They may also believe that Covid is not very dangerous to their demographic and don't like the risk/benefit calculation. They may also not trust the pharmaceutical industry and its influence on global health policy. The indemnifications of liability may give them pause to accept all the risk of side-effects. The censorship of contrary opinions on media may also affect their willingness to believe everything they are being told about the safety, efficacy, and necessity of the vaccines. "Anti-vax" has become a convenient political weapon. It's important to unpack what it means and who is using it and why.
  - lolsal 5y ago
    You articulated my sentiments way better than I could, thank you.
  - josho 5y ago
    Thank you for sharing. > some believe mandates are illegal and constitute government tyranny This isn't a vaccine mandate. You are free to choose to be tested or vaccinated. Do you feel being forced to make this choice is tyranny, if so how bad do things have to get before the good of society becomes more important than your personal choice?
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      Not who you're replying to, but the good of society never becomes more important than your personal choice.
      - generj 5y ago
        Clearly the good of society is more important than some personal choices. We don’t allow people to make personal choices to commit murder, or to drive drunk, or even to drive at all without licenses.
- halfjoking 5y ago
  I consider myself rational (at least enough to work in software). Here's a copy/paste of a comment I made before why I refuse the RNA vaxx... - I already had long covid (lasted 14 months), and don't want the vaccine to cause a relapse. It did exactly that to a family member who also had long covid, and she's still not better. It's just anecdotal but I've seen on longcovid forums multiple people claiming the vaccine CAUSED their longcovid. - I don't believe CDC recommendation that increasing antibody titers through vaccination offers better protection against the virus than convalescent immunity through prior infection. Antibody titers are just one aspect of immunity and BCells make antibodies when exposed to a virus again. Actually I'd be worried about training my immune system with only one part of the virus, it's possible that would hurt my robust immunity against variants, not help it. - CDC is dishonest with numbers by not tracking mild/non-hospitalized breakthrough cases. There is no reason not to track them. From the UK Gov on Page 12... 37 of 73 deaths from Delta variant are vaccinated: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/ https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... According to the CDC and media such numbers of deaths among vaccinated would be statistically impossible. - FDA not approving an inactive virus vaccine is BS. It's a monumental failure of the US government if they want a high % of people vaccinated to only offer DNA/RNA vaccines that are nothing like traditional vaccines people receive as children. China's Sinopharm works at preventing death and is just inactive virus. If required to take a vaccine I'd travel to another country to take that. Actually I'd even pay $10k to have an inactive virus vaccine imported if it prevented me from being discriminated against. - If there was such a thing as "misinformation" then it should be openly mocked, ridiculed and contested with facts. What's happening now with censorship is unprecedented - we even need a dedicated news site to keep track of it: https://reclaimthenet.org/ https://reclaimthenet.org/ . Organizations like the EFF should be presenting legal challenges for many of these things but it seems like everyone has gotten on the "misinformation" bandwagon. Doing that will lead to authoritarianism. Health policy should not be political, but opposing forced medical procedures is a fundamental human right, no exceptions. Also, since you mentioned Polio and chicken pox, I don't consider those the same because they are not RNA vaccines. All my issues with taking a covid vaxx would be solved if only the FDA approved Sinopharm/Sinovac so I could take an inactive virus vaccine. Instead I'm losing my job soon.
tomrod 5y ago
Come on, quit fetishizing. Get vaccinated if you're medically able and let's get on with normalcy.
- longthrow1 5y ago
  Have you gotten your swine flu vaccine yet? Fauci says it's completely safe. If you trust the government you should rush out and get it for yourself and any children you know. Also, the fda has a perfect track record for only approving safe treatments, so why worry?
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Look, let's look at the human side here. I understand your fear of the vaccine and possibly rage at people encouraging, exhorting, or even possibly looking down on you for your desire for safety. PM me if you want a safe person to speak with. Whether or not you want to reach out, know that I encourage you to be vaccinated and that the data supports that it is quite safe. The medical tradeoff of myocarditis (the largest observed side effect) is 16 COVID deaths prevented for every case (minor or major).[0] [0] https://youtu.be/mfFeocgSKvU https://youtu.be/mfFeocgSKvU
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Just so you know hn doesn’t have any pm functionality, you also don’t have any contact info in your hn bio, which is how most ppl connect outside of hn. I will say, however, you’ve been incredibly dismissive and condescending, at times even insulting throughout this entire thread, up and down the page, even as someone who is pro-vaccine, I wouldn’t consider you “safe”. So your offers comes off as more gaslighting than anything else.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - tomrod 5y ago
        I'm not sure what you're reading as dismissive. Perhaps telling someone who hopes for a brutal civil war that they are fetishizing, but that's simply a tongue in cheek response to someone who clearly hasn't considered the outcomes to such events. Otherwise, my message is consistent. Vaccination is a civic duty and one that is good for society. We need to be vaccinated. If a person wishes to reach out to me, I do not judge them based on differences of opinions.

josho 5y ago

I haven't spoken to an anti-vaxxer yet. Those that I've seen in the media have been completely irrational (5g/bill gates theories). So, I'm looking forward to learning from a rational person what their motivations are. What are your reasons to refuse a vaccine? Weren't you vaccinated as a child for polio & chicken pox? Why is this vaccine a hill to die on? Thanks.

marexv 5y ago
Those vaccines were properly tested. These vaccines were developed hastily. In Europe they are still treated as test vaccines, so you have to sign a paper and take the full responsibility for any side effects. I've gotten this far without infection although I was exposed. I have decided I just don't wan't to risk it. Also I am prepared to give up my access to ICU if that is what it takes for gov to leave me alone, as far as I see, taking up beds is the biggest issue. There are some other reasons, but those are purely related to political situation in my homeland.
- europeancitizen 5y ago
  > In Europe they are still treated as test vaccines, so you have to sign a paper and take the full responsibility for any side effects. This is not true. They got emergency authorization, but had to go through the same test phases as with normal authorization and will eventually get full authorization. This is not really different than in the USA and does not make it a 'test vaccine'. Also I was vaccinated in the EU and I did not have to sign any papers or 'take full responsibility for any side effects' in any way, nor did anyone else I know that was vaccinated in the EU. This may be the case in your country (I'd be interested to know which country that is), but it is certainly not a EU wide requirement.
edot 5y ago
I’m vaccinated, but against this vaccine mandate. My proposed method is this: 1) If you want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. 2) If you don’t, don’t. 3) If you go to the hospital with a COVID infection, your care is covered by insurance if you are vaccinated. If you are not, your care is not covered by insurance. This allows people to make decisions about their bodies, while also fending off the two main arguments I see for why everyone should be vaccinated. Those arguments are: 1) Unvaccinated people are hosts for mutations which can break through vaccines. Since we are already going to be doing yearly updates to this vaccine a la flu vaccines, this is not a concern to those who want to be vaccinated as they will get fresh protection each year. 2) Hospital beds are being filled with COVID patients, thus blocking people with e.g. heart attacks, car crash injuries etc. from getting care. With my plan, the unvaccinated will be disincentivized to go to the hospital to get COVID care, thus freeing these beds up. Again, this respects personal choices. But forcing people to do something to their body? Not cool with me. Also not logically consistent with being pro-choice, which most of my pro-mandate (anti-choice) friends are.
- leesalminen 5y ago
  To quote our vice-president, "The right of women to make decisions about their own bodies is not negotiable. The right of women to make decisions about their own bodies is their decision, it is their body."
  - julianlam 5y ago
    However, being pregnant does not cause other people to become pregnant against their will.
    - leesalminen 5y ago
      However, voluntarily ending pregnancy can cause fathers to-be to lose their child to-be against their will. We've decided that's OK, because the right of an individual over their body supersedes the rights of others with tangential impacts.
    - cheeseomlit 5y ago
ctrlp 5y ago
Not every anti-mandate person is a anti-vax. Government mandates are a political issue. Depending on the country and its laws, some believe mandates are illegal and constitute government tyranny. They may value rule by law or autonomy over their bodies. They may choose to receive vaccine but don't want to be 'forced to choose'. Not every anti-covid-vax person is anti-other-vax. The mRNA vaccine is novel. Many believe its long-term safety profile is TBD. They think comparing vaccines with decades of safety data to ones with months is apples to oranges. They may also believe that Covid is not very dangerous to their demographic and don't like the risk/benefit calculation. They may also not trust the pharmaceutical industry and its influence on global health policy. The indemnifications of liability may give them pause to accept all the risk of side-effects. The censorship of contrary opinions on media may also affect their willingness to believe everything they are being told about the safety, efficacy, and necessity of the vaccines. "Anti-vax" has become a convenient political weapon. It's important to unpack what it means and who is using it and why.
- lolsal 5y ago
  You articulated my sentiments way better than I could, thank you.
- josho 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing. > some believe mandates are illegal and constitute government tyranny This isn't a vaccine mandate. You are free to choose to be tested or vaccinated. Do you feel being forced to make this choice is tyranny, if so how bad do things have to get before the good of society becomes more important than your personal choice?
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    Not who you're replying to, but the good of society never becomes more important than your personal choice.
    - generj 5y ago
      Clearly the good of society is more important than some personal choices. We don’t allow people to make personal choices to commit murder, or to drive drunk, or even to drive at all without licenses.
halfjoking 5y ago
I consider myself rational (at least enough to work in software). Here's a copy/paste of a comment I made before why I refuse the RNA vaxx... - I already had long covid (lasted 14 months), and don't want the vaccine to cause a relapse. It did exactly that to a family member who also had long covid, and she's still not better. It's just anecdotal but I've seen on longcovid forums multiple people claiming the vaccine CAUSED their longcovid. - I don't believe CDC recommendation that increasing antibody titers through vaccination offers better protection against the virus than convalescent immunity through prior infection. Antibody titers are just one aspect of immunity and BCells make antibodies when exposed to a virus again. Actually I'd be worried about training my immune system with only one part of the virus, it's possible that would hurt my robust immunity against variants, not help it. - CDC is dishonest with numbers by not tracking mild/non-hospitalized breakthrough cases. There is no reason not to track them. From the UK Gov on Page 12... 37 of 73 deaths from Delta variant are vaccinated: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/ https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... According to the CDC and media such numbers of deaths among vaccinated would be statistically impossible. - FDA not approving an inactive virus vaccine is BS. It's a monumental failure of the US government if they want a high % of people vaccinated to only offer DNA/RNA vaccines that are nothing like traditional vaccines people receive as children. China's Sinopharm works at preventing death and is just inactive virus. If required to take a vaccine I'd travel to another country to take that. Actually I'd even pay $10k to have an inactive virus vaccine imported if it prevented me from being discriminated against. - If there was such a thing as "misinformation" then it should be openly mocked, ridiculed and contested with facts. What's happening now with censorship is unprecedented - we even need a dedicated news site to keep track of it: https://reclaimthenet.org/ https://reclaimthenet.org/ . Organizations like the EFF should be presenting legal challenges for many of these things but it seems like everyone has gotten on the "misinformation" bandwagon. Doing that will lead to authoritarianism. Health policy should not be political, but opposing forced medical procedures is a fundamental human right, no exceptions. Also, since you mentioned Polio and chicken pox, I don't consider those the same because they are not RNA vaccines. All my issues with taking a covid vaxx would be solved if only the FDA approved Sinopharm/Sinovac so I could take an inactive virus vaccine. Instead I'm losing my job soon.

tomrod 5y ago

Come on, quit fetishizing. Get vaccinated if you're medically able and let's get on with normalcy.

longthrow1 5y ago
Have you gotten your swine flu vaccine yet? Fauci says it's completely safe. If you trust the government you should rush out and get it for yourself and any children you know. Also, the fda has a perfect track record for only approving safe treatments, so why worry?
- tomrod 5y ago
  Look, let's look at the human side here. I understand your fear of the vaccine and possibly rage at people encouraging, exhorting, or even possibly looking down on you for your desire for safety. PM me if you want a safe person to speak with. Whether or not you want to reach out, know that I encourage you to be vaccinated and that the data supports that it is quite safe. The medical tradeoff of myocarditis (the largest observed side effect) is 16 COVID deaths prevented for every case (minor or major).[0] [0] https://youtu.be/mfFeocgSKvU https://youtu.be/mfFeocgSKvU
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Just so you know hn doesn’t have any pm functionality, you also don’t have any contact info in your hn bio, which is how most ppl connect outside of hn. I will say, however, you’ve been incredibly dismissive and condescending, at times even insulting throughout this entire thread, up and down the page, even as someone who is pro-vaccine, I wouldn’t consider you “safe”. So your offers comes off as more gaslighting than anything else.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tomrod 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you're reading as dismissive. Perhaps telling someone who hopes for a brutal civil war that they are fetishizing, but that's simply a tongue in cheek response to someone who clearly hasn't considered the outcomes to such events. Otherwise, my message is consistent. Vaccination is a civic duty and one that is good for society. We need to be vaccinated. If a person wishes to reach out to me, I do not judge them based on differences of opinions.