8 ms·

Maybe slightly off topic, but it’s always been odd to me how life insurance tests with vigor for tobacco use but lack that enthusiasm for metabolic health / die

Maybe slightly off topic, but it’s always been odd to me how life insurance tests with vigor for tobacco use but lack that enthusiasm for metabolic health / diet.

NetOpWibby 5y ago
#America
- the-dude 5y ago
  What makes you think it is different in other countries?
  - NetOpWibby 5y ago
    I didn't, nor did I imply. OSHA is America-based, yes?
    - fogof 5y ago
      Your comment was literally "#America", certainly this implies you think it's different in other countries, otherwise, why would you highlight the Americanness?
      - NetOpWibby 5y ago
        > OSHA is America-based, yes?
        Cederfjard 5y ago
        You were responding to a tangent about life insurance, that had nothing to do with OSHA nor anything else US-specific.
  - sAbakumoff 5y ago
    Most EU countries reached high vaccination rate without extreme measures because people here are not poisoned with right wing propaganda.
    - md_ 5y ago
      Not true. Germany has the "three g" mandate (and it has faced significant pushback). France has no vaccination mandate but does have policies to encourage it, which have also faced massive protests. Both and the US have first-dose vaccination rates within ten percentage points of each other. In all three countries, the pushback is primarily from populist/right-wing political movements. This is not a strictly American phenomenon.
      - Clubber 5y ago
        >In all three countries, the pushback is primarily from populist/right-wing political movements. This article says, at least in the US, the poor and young are the least likely to get a vaccine. You have any data for your political assertion that it's primarily right wingers? Keep in mind, politicizing COVID is what got us where we are today. https://www.vox.com/22587443/covid-19-vaccine-refusal-hesitancy-variant-delta-cases-rate https://www.vox.com/22587443/covid-19-vaccine-refusal-hesita...
      - sAbakumoff 5y ago
        note that I wrote "MOST EU countries". So, you suggestion that it's not true makes zero sense.
    - paulgb 5y ago
      Besides the (insane and infuriating) politicization of the vaccine, I wonder how much of the problem comes down to a fear of the US healthcare system for those who are uninsured or have catastrophic-only coverage. I worry that people fear they'll go in for a “free” shot and end up getting a $300 bill in the mail, because hidden costs abound in the US healthcare system. (Even though we know that they won't)
      - 5y ago
  - julianlam 5y ago
    Canada achieved a high vaccination rate without resorting to lotteries (in most provinces, anyway), or mandates (until this month).
    - q1w2 5y ago
      The rate might be higher, but we have our share of anti-vax people - including some violent protests at the Prime Minister lately, causing him to cancel rally events. In our office, we have a number of people I know aren't vaccinated.
tomrod 5y ago
You can control your tobacco use. That is why Pigovian taxation is effective.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  I’ll go where you’re alluding A “food desert” doesn’t account for the person who consistently orders two flavors in their tall iced coffee (usually equates to 6+ oz of simple syrup); that’s a choice — and a severe negative externality.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Indeed. Tax that at point of sale, like cigarettes and other tobacco. Risk pooling in insurance is simply an added benefit, but a less clear moral approach when the disease is not necessarily controllable by the person. Metabolic disorders exist. Tobacco disorders, not as much except conditioning and addiction. But, it should be a focus for wellness programs so that metabolic disorders are destigmatized.
    - da_big_ghey 5y ago
      Nearly 3/4 of out adults are overweight, thats mostly shitty choices. You say "disorder" like it is something these people got through no fault of their own but that is not often the case. Shitty choices probably we should stigmatize becuase accepting this many fat people have gotten us a public health crisis.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
        I hear this shtick repeated every time someone doesn't want to fund universal healthcare because they don't want to pay for fat people. Fun fact, obese people actually have lower lifetime healthcare costs than healthy people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2225433/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2225433/ Now, if you wish to reduce obesity because you're more interested in a person's quality adjusted life years, you absolutely do want to treat obesity (and addiction) like a disorder, because compassion and empathy is the only way you're ever going to get someone to make the long term life choices they need to get better.
loonster 5y ago
I believe Obamacare banned testing for everything except tobacco. Edit: oh life insurance, thanks.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  That's for health insurance.
- tyingq 5y ago
  I'm doubtful Obamacare would regulate life insurance. As far as I know, life insurance policies of significant amounts still do medical exams. And care about drug use, tobacco use, high blood pressure, disclosure about things like past cancer diagnosis, lifestyle stuff (skydiving, climbing, and so on) etc.
kylecordes 5y ago
With this kind of testing, they might find so few acceptable customers that it wouldn't be worth being in the insurance business anymore.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  In the US, you are not going to be able to get any decently priced term life insurance without a blood test, height, and weight. The A1C and cholesterol levels, combined with height, weight, medical history, and family medical history probably give them enough information for metabolic health/diet.
BurningFrog 5y ago
We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. The effects of smoking OTOH are extremely clear.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- josho 5y ago
  > We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. I thought it was pretty clear that we do. Go talk to any physician and they will tell you the 3 things you control to increase your chances of a long & healthy life are: 1. Limit alcohol/tobacco 2. exercise frequently 3. eat a healthy diet Are you suggesting for #3 they have no data to back that recommendation up?
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Eh, yes there is data but the association is not clear and straightforward that diet is the necessary or sufficient condition for metabolic or cardiovascular diseases. What you're quoting is, in healthcare, called the "standard of care" and is the workflow that is recommended for doctors (i.e. less likely to be sued for malpractice if they follow the route). Most doctors are technicians, not researchers establishing causal claims with strong data. Please don't misread, I agree with you in principle. I am simply pointing out there are nuances.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      "Most doctors are technicians, not researchers" Thanks. Very succinct, and helps me frame my medical interactions a bit more clearly now.
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      You are wrong. There are great volumes of evidence that keeping a low weight and keeping macronutrients roughly in some gap makes you live longer. I'm not sure what is left to be talking about. Specific fad diets?
FlyingAvatar 5y ago
To get my life insurance 5ish years ago, I had to have a blood test that included tobacco, drug use and cholesterol. My understanding is that is pretty common. One you qualify though, I don't think they can re-test you.
firebird84 5y ago
They certainly test for basic health, or did with me. I had to give blood and urine, and a nurse came to check other vitals. They also get your basic measurements which gives them BMI. They can then categorize you into "preferred" or other groups.
mgkimsal 5y ago
You often do get tested and rated based on health factors. Maybe not exact diet, but they can surely infer some of that from blood/urine/size/weight/etc. It depends on the insurance company but more likely the size of the policy. I think a lot of $20-$100k policies don't require any tests - they may also be more expensive. I got a decent term 15 years ago, and I had to have an in-home exam from a nurse.
- ecommerceguy 5y ago
  correct many small polices don't require testing, same for group life policies upto a certain amount of benefit. When you get into the 10 million range that's when a carrier really starts digging into family history etc. Few carriers are currently willing to write anyone over 60 which is affecting key person policies more than anything, in my experience. >> it’s always been odd to me how life insurance tests with vigor for tobacco use but lack that enthusiasm for metabolic health / diet. This commenter has never had a major individual life insurance policy. While Tobacco effects underwriting, it's not as major of a factor anymore.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
taylodl 5y ago
It depends on the amount of life insurance you get. Mine is of an amount that blood work was required and it definitely affects the rate. One of the things I learned is I have a "fatty liver" - which is indicative of poor metabolic health. I started taking care of that, brought the levels down to normal, and my rate was lowered.

Maybe slightly off topic, but it’s always been odd to me how life insurance tests with vigor for tobacco use but lack that enthusiasm for metabolic health / diet.

NetOpWibby 5y ago

#America

the-dude 5y ago
What makes you think it is different in other countries?
- NetOpWibby 5y ago
  I didn't, nor did I imply. OSHA is America-based, yes?
  - fogof 5y ago
    Your comment was literally "#America", certainly this implies you think it's different in other countries, otherwise, why would you highlight the Americanness?
    - NetOpWibby 5y ago
      > OSHA is America-based, yes?
      - Cederfjard 5y ago
        You were responding to a tangent about life insurance, that had nothing to do with OSHA nor anything else US-specific.
- sAbakumoff 5y ago
  Most EU countries reached high vaccination rate without extreme measures because people here are not poisoned with right wing propaganda.
  - md_ 5y ago
    Not true. Germany has the "three g" mandate (and it has faced significant pushback). France has no vaccination mandate but does have policies to encourage it, which have also faced massive protests. Both and the US have first-dose vaccination rates within ten percentage points of each other. In all three countries, the pushback is primarily from populist/right-wing political movements. This is not a strictly American phenomenon.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      >In all three countries, the pushback is primarily from populist/right-wing political movements. This article says, at least in the US, the poor and young are the least likely to get a vaccine. You have any data for your political assertion that it's primarily right wingers? Keep in mind, politicizing COVID is what got us where we are today. https://www.vox.com/22587443/covid-19-vaccine-refusal-hesitancy-variant-delta-cases-rate https://www.vox.com/22587443/covid-19-vaccine-refusal-hesita...
    - sAbakumoff 5y ago
      note that I wrote "MOST EU countries". So, you suggestion that it's not true makes zero sense.
  - paulgb 5y ago
    Besides the (insane and infuriating) politicization of the vaccine, I wonder how much of the problem comes down to a fear of the US healthcare system for those who are uninsured or have catastrophic-only coverage. I worry that people fear they'll go in for a “free” shot and end up getting a $300 bill in the mail, because hidden costs abound in the US healthcare system. (Even though we know that they won't)
    - 5y ago
- julianlam 5y ago
  Canada achieved a high vaccination rate without resorting to lotteries (in most provinces, anyway), or mandates (until this month).
  - q1w2 5y ago
    The rate might be higher, but we have our share of anti-vax people - including some violent protests at the Prime Minister lately, causing him to cancel rally events. In our office, we have a number of people I know aren't vaccinated.

tomrod 5y ago

You can control your tobacco use. That is why Pigovian taxation is effective.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
anonymouse008 5y ago
I’ll go where you’re alluding A “food desert” doesn’t account for the person who consistently orders two flavors in their tall iced coffee (usually equates to 6+ oz of simple syrup); that’s a choice — and a severe negative externality.
- tomrod 5y ago
  Indeed. Tax that at point of sale, like cigarettes and other tobacco. Risk pooling in insurance is simply an added benefit, but a less clear moral approach when the disease is not necessarily controllable by the person. Metabolic disorders exist. Tobacco disorders, not as much except conditioning and addiction. But, it should be a focus for wellness programs so that metabolic disorders are destigmatized.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    Nearly 3/4 of out adults are overweight, thats mostly shitty choices. You say "disorder" like it is something these people got through no fault of their own but that is not often the case. Shitty choices probably we should stigmatize becuase accepting this many fat people have gotten us a public health crisis.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
      I hear this shtick repeated every time someone doesn't want to fund universal healthcare because they don't want to pay for fat people. Fun fact, obese people actually have lower lifetime healthcare costs than healthy people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2225433/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2225433/ Now, if you wish to reduce obesity because you're more interested in a person's quality adjusted life years, you absolutely do want to treat obesity (and addiction) like a disorder, because compassion and empathy is the only way you're ever going to get someone to make the long term life choices they need to get better.

loonster 5y ago

I believe Obamacare banned testing for everything except tobacco. Edit: oh life insurance, thanks.

fallingknife 5y ago
That's for health insurance.
tyingq 5y ago
I'm doubtful Obamacare would regulate life insurance. As far as I know, life insurance policies of significant amounts still do medical exams. And care about drug use, tobacco use, high blood pressure, disclosure about things like past cancer diagnosis, lifestyle stuff (skydiving, climbing, and so on) etc.

kylecordes 5y ago

With this kind of testing, they might find so few acceptable customers that it wouldn't be worth being in the insurance business anymore.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
In the US, you are not going to be able to get any decently priced term life insurance without a blood test, height, and weight. The A1C and cholesterol levels, combined with height, weight, medical history, and family medical history probably give them enough information for metabolic health/diet.

BurningFrog 5y ago

We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. The effects of smoking OTOH are extremely clear.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
josho 5y ago
> We still don't really understand how diet affects health long term. I thought it was pretty clear that we do. Go talk to any physician and they will tell you the 3 things you control to increase your chances of a long & healthy life are: 1. Limit alcohol/tobacco 2. exercise frequently 3. eat a healthy diet Are you suggesting for #3 they have no data to back that recommendation up?
- tomrod 5y ago
  Eh, yes there is data but the association is not clear and straightforward that diet is the necessary or sufficient condition for metabolic or cardiovascular diseases. What you're quoting is, in healthcare, called the "standard of care" and is the workflow that is recommended for doctors (i.e. less likely to be sued for malpractice if they follow the route). Most doctors are technicians, not researchers establishing causal claims with strong data. Please don't misread, I agree with you in principle. I am simply pointing out there are nuances.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    "Most doctors are technicians, not researchers" Thanks. Very succinct, and helps me frame my medical interactions a bit more clearly now.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    You are wrong. There are great volumes of evidence that keeping a low weight and keeping macronutrients roughly in some gap makes you live longer. I'm not sure what is left to be talking about. Specific fad diets?

FlyingAvatar 5y ago

To get my life insurance 5ish years ago, I had to have a blood test that included tobacco, drug use and cholesterol. My understanding is that is pretty common. One you qualify though, I don't think they can re-test you.

firebird84 5y ago

They certainly test for basic health, or did with me. I had to give blood and urine, and a nurse came to check other vitals. They also get your basic measurements which gives them BMI. They can then categorize you into "preferred" or other groups.

mgkimsal 5y ago

You often do get tested and rated based on health factors. Maybe not exact diet, but they can surely infer some of that from blood/urine/size/weight/etc. It depends on the insurance company but more likely the size of the policy. I think a lot of $20-$100k policies don't require any tests - they may also be more expensive. I got a decent term 15 years ago, and I had to have an in-home exam from a nurse.

ecommerceguy 5y ago
correct many small polices don't require testing, same for group life policies upto a certain amount of benefit. When you get into the 10 million range that's when a carrier really starts digging into family history etc. Few carriers are currently willing to write anyone over 60 which is affecting key person policies more than anything, in my experience. >> it’s always been odd to me how life insurance tests with vigor for tobacco use but lack that enthusiasm for metabolic health / diet. This commenter has never had a major individual life insurance policy. While Tobacco effects underwriting, it's not as major of a factor anymore.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

taylodl 5y ago

It depends on the amount of life insurance you get. Mine is of an amount that blood work was required and it definitely affects the rate. One of the things I learned is I have a "fatty liver" - which is indicative of poor metabolic health. I started taking care of that, brought the levels down to normal, and my rate was lowered.