6 ms·

Even for delta? The actual study the article claims the summarize: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext https:/

by blagie 5y ago

Even for delta? The actual study the article claims the summarize: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... Find the word 'delta' in the text of the actual study. It ain't there. And look at the dates of the study. Most of the data is pre-delta. Your linked ACSH article simply fabricates a conclusion based on no evidence. The scientific establishment sickens me here. The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough. The outcome is the opposite, though. The lies are common enough and transparent enough that the whole establishment loses credibility, and a huge swath of the world doesn't believe it about vaccines, climate change, and a slew of other issues.

op00to 5y ago
Yes, even for delta.
bluGill 5y ago
At least half as many vaccinated people get covid, not getting it means you don't spread it. And of those that do get it, they kick it a lot sooner and thus are not spreading it for as long. But no, if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless.
- iluvcommunism 5y ago
  It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Cite your source, please.
    - iluvcommunism 5y ago
      https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var...
      - HungSu 5y ago
        > Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        That does bot support your claim that “It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.” It says: * Vaccinated people are leas likely to get COVID, even with the Delta variant. * Vaccinated people who do get breakthrough infections remain infectious for a shorter time than unvaccinated, even with Delta It does note that vaccinated people with breakthrough infections can spread Delta, but that is not the same as “just as much as the unvaccinated”.
  - hn8788 5y ago
    The CDC disagrees with you[1]. "COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19." [1]https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings...
    - iluvcommunism 5y ago
      No. They don’t. “ Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others.” https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var...
      - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
        Do you understand that "reduce" is not synonymous with "eliminate"? Because an acknowledgement that fully vaccinated people can spread Delta is not a refutation to the claim that it reduces the spread. Even the paragraph you quoted says "However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people."
- jtbayly 5y ago
  Parent comment: "The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough." Your summary of their position is so bad I've flagged your comment: "if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless."
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bluGill 5y ago
    I'm summarizing him and everyone else with attitudes like his: the vaccine isn't 100% so it is nothing. Maybe I'm a bit extreme, but at this point I am tired seeing the same ensconce.
    - blagie 5y ago
      My attitude is to vaccinate and to continue to maintain reasonable precautions. You are very extreme, and people like you are exactly why many people take a polarizing view on the other end of the spectrum. This is a nice video on polarization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc My own estimate is that the vaccine is about 50% effective for delta. That's cuts R0 in half, which is huge, but not something you can in any way, shape, or form rely on in isolation. It will likely be even lower for future mutations. Aside from the antivaxer movement, another outcome of extreme pro-vaccine stances, to the level of people lying, is that many people take NO precautions once vaccinated. That's a lot of what's driving some (not all) of the current delta outbreaks. And on the anti-vaxxer side, once scientists get caught fabricating data, they're not going to be trusted even when they're right.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lamontcg 5y ago
The argument that vaccines don't prevent delta tranmission are based on headlines, not science. And unfortunately right now science is playing catch-up. There simply isn't any evidence on breakthrough transmission with delta testing humans yet because it is recent. The headlines and public health messages are assuming worst case in order to scare vaccinated people into masking up again, while there's actually indications that vaccinated breakthrough infections almost certainly transmit less. What we know is that while early in the infection viral loads in delta are much higher, but Alpha, delta, and non-VOI/VOC infections feature similar viral trajectories[1], in vaccinated breakthrough infections RNA load declines faster[2] and the ability to culture virus in breakthrough infections is lower[3], we know that vaccines reduced transmission with alpha[4] and apart from scary headlines we still expect that vaccines reduce transmission with delta. While there's documented cases of delta breakthrough infections transmitting to one or two other people, there's not been any studies of how common that is, or how common it is for breakthrough infections to become superspreaders to >10 people, or if that is even possible. Since viral loads are correlated with transmissibility and symptomology/virulence the very high protection against severe disease with vaccination may also protect against severe transmission. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v... [2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v... [3] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v... [4] https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carriers-didnt-spread-virus-in-public-spaces-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carrier...
- mythrwy 5y ago
  `The argument that vaccines don't prevent delta tranmission are based on headlines, not science.` That is not the case. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 "“The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is,” says co-author Thomas Friedrich, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison." Vaccinations may (or may not) reduce the propensity of vaccinated people to spread Delta but it's very clear at this point vaccinated people can spread Delta to some degree.

by blagie 5y ago

op00to 5y ago

Yes, even for delta.

bluGill 5y ago

At least half as many vaccinated people get covid, not getting it means you don't spread it. And of those that do get it, they kick it a lot sooner and thus are not spreading it for as long. But no, if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless.

iluvcommunism 5y ago
It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tomrod 5y ago
  Cite your source, please.
  - iluvcommunism 5y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var...
    - HungSu 5y ago
      > Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      That does bot support your claim that “It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.” It says: * Vaccinated people are leas likely to get COVID, even with the Delta variant. * Vaccinated people who do get breakthrough infections remain infectious for a shorter time than unvaccinated, even with Delta It does note that vaccinated people with breakthrough infections can spread Delta, but that is not the same as “just as much as the unvaccinated”.
- hn8788 5y ago
  The CDC disagrees with you[1]. "COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19." [1]https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings...
  - iluvcommunism 5y ago
    No. They don’t. “ Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others.” https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var...
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      Do you understand that "reduce" is not synonymous with "eliminate"? Because an acknowledgement that fully vaccinated people can spread Delta is not a refutation to the claim that it reduces the spread. Even the paragraph you quoted says "However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people."
jtbayly 5y ago
Parent comment: "The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough." Your summary of their position is so bad I've flagged your comment: "if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bluGill 5y ago
  I'm summarizing him and everyone else with attitudes like his: the vaccine isn't 100% so it is nothing. Maybe I'm a bit extreme, but at this point I am tired seeing the same ensconce.
  - blagie 5y ago
    My attitude is to vaccinate and to continue to maintain reasonable precautions. You are very extreme, and people like you are exactly why many people take a polarizing view on the other end of the spectrum. This is a nice video on polarization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc My own estimate is that the vaccine is about 50% effective for delta. That's cuts R0 in half, which is huge, but not something you can in any way, shape, or form rely on in isolation. It will likely be even lower for future mutations. Aside from the antivaxer movement, another outcome of extreme pro-vaccine stances, to the level of people lying, is that many people take NO precautions once vaccinated. That's a lot of what's driving some (not all) of the current delta outbreaks. And on the anti-vaxxer side, once scientists get caught fabricating data, they're not going to be trusted even when they're right.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lamontcg 5y ago

The argument that vaccines don't prevent delta tranmission are based on headlines, not science. And unfortunately right now science is playing catch-up. There simply isn't any evidence on breakthrough transmission with delta testing humans yet because it is recent. The headlines and public health messages are assuming worst case in order to scare vaccinated people into masking up again, while there's actually indications that vaccinated breakthrough infections almost certainly transmit less. What we know is that while early in the infection viral loads in delta are much higher, but Alpha, delta, and non-VOI/VOC infections feature similar viral trajectories[1], in vaccinated breakthrough infections RNA load declines faster[2] and the ability to culture virus in breakthrough infections is lower[3], we know that vaccines reduced transmission with alpha[4] and apart from scary headlines we still expect that vaccines reduce transmission with delta. While there's documented cases of delta breakthrough infections transmitting to one or two other people, there's not been any studies of how common that is, or how common it is for breakthrough infections to become superspreaders to >10 people, or if that is even possible. Since viral loads are correlated with transmissibility and symptomology/virulence the very high protection against severe disease with vaccination may also protect against severe transmission. [1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v3 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.21251535v... [2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v... [3] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v... [4] https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carriers-didnt-spread-virus-in-public-spaces-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carrier...

mythrwy 5y ago
`The argument that vaccines don't prevent delta tranmission are based on headlines, not science.` That is not the case. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 "“The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is,” says co-author Thomas Friedrich, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison." Vaccinations may (or may not) reduce the propensity of vaccinated people to spread Delta but it's very clear at this point vaccinated people can spread Delta to some degree.