6 ms·

> France, an ancient, highly centralized country with a strong taste for ritual, seems to require a visible symbol of order at its center. It's kinda cliché, I

by Narann 5y ago

> France, an ancient, highly centralized country with a strong taste for ritual, seems to require a visible symbol of order at its center. It's kinda cliché, IMHO. France (and many European nations) has been build around the belief that centralized power help to ensure political stability. As soon they are no more/less centralized power, every region starts to organize itself and territorial conflicts of interest emerges. It's not about the power to be visible, more than being effective.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Are there successful nation states that do not rely on centralized power? Take the US for example after 1865 it was made clear that the US has one capital, one leader and one government.
- rguillebert 5y ago
  The book "Why nations fail" makes the claim that centralized institutions (among other things) are necessary for building a prosperous country. It's a very interesting read.
- 317070 5y ago
  Belgium and Switzerland come to mind? Two highly federalised states.
  - AHabe 5y ago
    Which is how you end up without a government for 589 days.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Somebody could argue that's a feature, not a bug. But more seriously: if high federalisation means more mechanisms actually end up working fine without top-down directives, isn't that a good thing...? Without going all Bakunin, surely requiring fewer "chiefs" to achieve the same levels of prosperity can be considered a step forward for society.
      - SyzygistSix 5y ago
        Isn't that a case of more chiefs, each of which have less authority?
        toyg 5y ago
        Ideally we'd all be our own chief, surely? So "going down" gets us closer to utopia.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  From my read of history, empires start off more like republics and then centralize over time until they collapse under their own weight. It was said best by Aristotle: "Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms."
cafard 5y ago
In his memoirs (largely about 1848 and its aftermath), de Tocqeville said that the French could create anything but a free government and destroy anything but centralization. The first half seems to have been disproven.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Was thus when he was writing about Algeria?
  - cafard 5y ago
    This was Souvenirs (https://shop.albertine.com/livre/9782070405725-souvenirs-alexis-de-tocqueville/ https://shop.albertine.com/livre/9782070405725-souvenirs-ale...). It has been years since I read it, but I believe the only foreign adventure mentioned had to do with Rome.

by Narann 5y ago

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Are there successful nation states that do not rely on centralized power? Take the US for example after 1865 it was made clear that the US has one capital, one leader and one government.

rguillebert 5y ago
The book "Why nations fail" makes the claim that centralized institutions (among other things) are necessary for building a prosperous country. It's a very interesting read.
317070 5y ago
Belgium and Switzerland come to mind? Two highly federalised states.
- AHabe 5y ago
  Which is how you end up without a government for 589 days.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Somebody could argue that's a feature, not a bug. But more seriously: if high federalisation means more mechanisms actually end up working fine without top-down directives, isn't that a good thing...? Without going all Bakunin, surely requiring fewer "chiefs" to achieve the same levels of prosperity can be considered a step forward for society.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      Isn't that a case of more chiefs, each of which have less authority?
      - toyg 5y ago
        Ideally we'd all be our own chief, surely? So "going down" gets us closer to utopia.
willcipriano 5y ago
From my read of history, empires start off more like republics and then centralize over time until they collapse under their own weight. It was said best by Aristotle: "Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms."

cafard 5y ago

In his memoirs (largely about 1848 and its aftermath), de Tocqeville said that the French could create anything but a free government and destroy anything but centralization. The first half seems to have been disproven.

selimthegrim 5y ago
Was thus when he was writing about Algeria?
- cafard 5y ago
  This was Souvenirs (https://shop.albertine.com/livre/9782070405725-souvenirs-alexis-de-tocqueville/ https://shop.albertine.com/livre/9782070405725-souvenirs-ale...). It has been years since I read it, but I believe the only foreign adventure mentioned had to do with Rome.