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> Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you

by croon 5y ago

> Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you catching it eventually. I'm not sure if you chose this binary line of thinking or if it was by accident, but you present the outcomes based on a 0 or 100% efficacy when it's not the case. It matters/ed what other people do, and if more people got vaccinated (or could do so earlier) it might've stopped covid. Whether it could now is a crap-shoot, but more protection is always better than less.

roenxi 5y ago
> but more protection is always better than less It isn't, immune systems are quite complicated: "White House immunologist Dr Anthony Fauci offered the warning while giving an update on efforts to develop vaccines at an online US Senate hearing on Tuesday. He said: ‘I must warn that there’s also the possibility of negative consequences, where certain vaccines can actually enhance the negative effect of the infection.’ Dr Fauci later explained that in rare cases people vaccinated against a condition could end up contracting the virus they thought they’d been protected against, and falling more seriously-ill with that disease as a result" [0] We should be letting people make their own choices. [0] https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/americas-top-coronavirus-doctor-warns-vaccine-make-covid-19-worse-12692519/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/americas-top-coronavirus-doct...
- croon 5y ago
  You're quoting something from May last year, before there was vaccine, where he was expressing a general disclaimer about the (very) small potentional for enhanced pathogenesis when creating vaccines. This is not the case with the covid-19 vaccines. So yes, regarding covid, more protection is always better than less. The rest of my points were also specifically about covid, as is apparent if you were to quote its entirety. > We should be letting people make their own choices. Should people make "their own" decisions on how much diesel exhaust their cars produce, or whether they can carry around airborne nerve gas?
  - roenxi 5y ago
    It could still happen. There are going to be more waves of coronavirus that are better adjusted to work around the current crop of vaccines. Nobody has a crystal ball for this stuff. That is why the scientific bodies keep talking about "evidence" and "no evidence" instead of making blanket claims. Plus if I recall correctly there is some evidence that people who get COVID after being vaccinated (ie, breakthrough cases) get worse cases. We haven't had time for the Phase IV trials yet, so it is entirely possible that there are some interactions that haven't come to light yet. > Should people make "their own" decisions on how much diesel exhaust their cars produce, or whether they can carry around airborne nerve gas? Yes to the diesel. And no to the nerve gas. But I'll point out that coronavirus is quite different to nerve gas - you're going to be exposed to it anyway regardless of vaccination rate. And statistically speaking, the person who exposes you is likely to be vaccinated.
    - croon 5y ago
      > Plus if I recall correctly there is some evidence that people who get COVID after being vaccinated (ie, breakthrough cases) get worse cases. Please find the source, otherwise I assume this is from misinformation around Israel statistics, which doesn't say that at all. > Yes to the diesel. "The excess emissions of harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) exhaust gases can be linked to 38,000 premature deaths worldwide, according to the new research." [0] [0] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131067-diesel-fumes-lead-to-thousands-more-deaths-than-thought/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131067-diesel-fumes-le... > But I'll point out that coronavirus is quite different to nerve gas - you're going to be exposed to it anyway regardless of vaccination rate. [citation needed] > And statistically speaking, the person who exposes you is likely to be vaccinated. Misleading. Please tell me adjusted to group size which group (vaccinated/unvaccinated) is more likely to expose me.
      - roenxi 5y ago
        > Please find the source On reflection, it didn't make any sense. Obviously the worst case scenario for covid is death and so it isn't possible for a vaccine to make breakthrough cases worse. Regardless, you're still wrong. It isn't the case that more protection is always better. We know that there are circumstances where a vaccine can make a disease worse. And we don't know what future variants of the coronavirus will do. On the diesel; yeah, it causes deaths from air pollution. Lots of things do. Life is not without risk. > [citation needed] ... Misleading. I mean; it is kinda obvious that COVID isn't going away. And you can tell from the case numbers that it is mostly vaccinated people getting it, because there aren't enough deaths for it to be raging through an unvaccinated population [0]. It isn't misleading, it is just facts. [0] EDIT - Eg, New York is at around 33 deaths v. 4,400 cases in the last 7 days. CFR of 0.7%, let alone IFR. Compared to a batting average of around 55k / 2 million cases overall which is >2%. Suggests around 66% of cases are among vaccinated people minimum, maybe higher.

by croon 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago

> but more protection is always better than less It isn't, immune systems are quite complicated: "White House immunologist Dr Anthony Fauci offered the warning while giving an update on efforts to develop vaccines at an online US Senate hearing on Tuesday. He said: ‘I must warn that there’s also the possibility of negative consequences, where certain vaccines can actually enhance the negative effect of the infection.’ Dr Fauci later explained that in rare cases people vaccinated against a condition could end up contracting the virus they thought they’d been protected against, and falling more seriously-ill with that disease as a result" [0] We should be letting people make their own choices. [0] https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/americas-top-coronavirus-doctor-warns-vaccine-make-covid-19-worse-12692519/ https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/americas-top-coronavirus-doct...

croon 5y ago
You're quoting something from May last year, before there was vaccine, where he was expressing a general disclaimer about the (very) small potentional for enhanced pathogenesis when creating vaccines. This is not the case with the covid-19 vaccines. So yes, regarding covid, more protection is always better than less. The rest of my points were also specifically about covid, as is apparent if you were to quote its entirety. > We should be letting people make their own choices. Should people make "their own" decisions on how much diesel exhaust their cars produce, or whether they can carry around airborne nerve gas?
- roenxi 5y ago
  It could still happen. There are going to be more waves of coronavirus that are better adjusted to work around the current crop of vaccines. Nobody has a crystal ball for this stuff. That is why the scientific bodies keep talking about "evidence" and "no evidence" instead of making blanket claims. Plus if I recall correctly there is some evidence that people who get COVID after being vaccinated (ie, breakthrough cases) get worse cases. We haven't had time for the Phase IV trials yet, so it is entirely possible that there are some interactions that haven't come to light yet. > Should people make "their own" decisions on how much diesel exhaust their cars produce, or whether they can carry around airborne nerve gas? Yes to the diesel. And no to the nerve gas. But I'll point out that coronavirus is quite different to nerve gas - you're going to be exposed to it anyway regardless of vaccination rate. And statistically speaking, the person who exposes you is likely to be vaccinated.
  - croon 5y ago
    > Plus if I recall correctly there is some evidence that people who get COVID after being vaccinated (ie, breakthrough cases) get worse cases. Please find the source, otherwise I assume this is from misinformation around Israel statistics, which doesn't say that at all. > Yes to the diesel. "The excess emissions of harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) exhaust gases can be linked to 38,000 premature deaths worldwide, according to the new research." [0] [0] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131067-diesel-fumes-lead-to-thousands-more-deaths-than-thought/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131067-diesel-fumes-le... > But I'll point out that coronavirus is quite different to nerve gas - you're going to be exposed to it anyway regardless of vaccination rate. [citation needed] > And statistically speaking, the person who exposes you is likely to be vaccinated. Misleading. Please tell me adjusted to group size which group (vaccinated/unvaccinated) is more likely to expose me.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      > Please find the source On reflection, it didn't make any sense. Obviously the worst case scenario for covid is death and so it isn't possible for a vaccine to make breakthrough cases worse. Regardless, you're still wrong. It isn't the case that more protection is always better. We know that there are circumstances where a vaccine can make a disease worse. And we don't know what future variants of the coronavirus will do. On the diesel; yeah, it causes deaths from air pollution. Lots of things do. Life is not without risk. > [citation needed] ... Misleading. I mean; it is kinda obvious that COVID isn't going away. And you can tell from the case numbers that it is mostly vaccinated people getting it, because there aren't enough deaths for it to be raging through an unvaccinated population [0]. It isn't misleading, it is just facts. [0] EDIT - Eg, New York is at around 33 deaths v. 4,400 cases in the last 7 days. CFR of 0.7%, let alone IFR. Compared to a batting average of around 55k / 2 million cases overall which is >2%. Suggests around 66% of cases are among vaccinated people minimum, maybe higher.