4 ms·

Why? What is the desired benefit from this that it's to be put into a standard?

by erklik 5y ago

exporectomy 5y ago
Here's the good news description of it. Kind of unclear why it's so important as to put into every Wifi device though https://beyondstandards.ieee.org/ieee-802-11bf-aims-to-enable-a-new-application-of-wlan-technology-wlan-sensing/ https://beyondstandards.ieee.org/ieee-802-11bf-aims-to-enabl...
- codetrotter 5y ago
  From the link you posted: > Measurements obtained with WLAN sensing can be used to support new industrial and commercial applications in semiconductor manufacturing, enterprise networking, and test and measurement equipment. The standard will also benefit end user applications, such as home security, entertainment, energy management (HVAC, light, device power savings), home elderly care, and assisted living. Sounds reasonable. I still worry about what it means for privacy in our homes, and for the future with ever more surveillance and erosion of our rights.
  - rapjr9 5y ago
    I would guess that setting up a WiFi receiver outside of anyones living space but within signal range is not illegal if you are not intercepting and decoding packets, so anyone could currently get visibility into any home with WiFi. Police, neighbors, crooks, anyone. However there is some precedent for police, they are not allowed to use thermal viewers to look through the walls of peoples homes without a warrant. This would seem to be similar. It's been disconcerting that the police have just adopted technologies because they think they would be useful without anyone considering whether a warrant should be required. There should be a law saying that any technology use by police requires a warrant unless it has been specifically allowed to be warrantless. There are some good uses of a WiFi tracker though, such as an automated health monitor. I'd like to have a continuous record of where I am in my house. I could use it to tell how much time I spend on a computer, how much sleep I get, what I spend most of my time doing, how much exercise I get, where I left some object, lots of things. I just don't want other people or companies to have all that information and I don't want the police or government to be able to get it without a warrant.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  I'm not sure why you think this is good news: "The technology can measure range, velocity, and angular information; detect motion, presence, or proximity; detect objects, people, and animals; and be used in rooms, houses, cars, and enterprise environments." It seems incredibly invasive. Can some peeping tom just turn on his WiFi base station to track if the next door neighbour he is obsessed with has a guy over...if she's in her bedroom...is in the shower...you get the idea. Creepy stuff!
  - gonzo41 5y ago
    Time to buy shares in CAT 5 :P
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    I'd love to have this for home automation purposes, but I can't be in favour of this knowing what the standard FAANG companies will probably abuse this standard for, let alone scummy ISPs.
    - znpy 5y ago
      I expect dumb limitations like "too many people around you, you must buy a more expensive plan to play this audio"
    - belter 5y ago
      It will probably turn off your lights when your neighbor goes to sleep.
    - mattlutze 5y ago
      As something to install and run for yourself? Sounds cool in theory but awful for your neighbors, and what should be a no go generally. Think of areas where liberty and privacy are conditional, or indeed as a fundamental feature that any ISP could turn on by default in their mandatory router/modem boxes?
      - jeroenhd 5y ago
        If it works reliably, it could make it trivial to implement things like "turn off the lights 10 minutes after everyone has left the room" and "turn on the lights when someone enters". Right now you can still do that with presence sensors, but they're annoying and require hardware for every corner of the room to work reliably. With its band steering capabilities, I'm convinced WiFi can already make an approximation of your location. It can't deal with things like reflection and interference for positioning of course, but it's still pretty close to working already. Of course, I mean this as something I'd like to turn on and integrate into Home Assistant, not as something that every ISP router should come with (which is what I fear will probably happen).
lyaa 5y ago
The decision of what gets added to such standards is largely a combination of politics and what is actively being used. Some companies and research labs wanted it to be added and they lobbied successfully for it. This technology is already usable with many existing routers, though to a lesser degree. The standard is meant to define expectations of how the technology is implemented in future 'SENS' devices. I guess it could be useful for AR/VR or replace Bluetooth in some location sensing applications (like in stores tracking movement patterns, or monitoring systems for dementia patients living alone). I dislike how this additional privacy infraction is going to be the norm in a few years.
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
They will sell you thief protection, alarm if chidren or pets move to certain places, rbnb tooling and so on. And now that we all have micrphones and gps in our pockets, we will also accept 3d live mapping of our lives. Because "we have nothing to hide"
zalebz 5y ago
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."
brummm 5y ago
Enterprises already use Wifi to track customers in stores (albeit in a very simple way compared to the new capabilities). This will enable stores to track customers to a much higher degree.

Why? What is the desired benefit from this that it's to be put into a standard?

by erklik 5y ago

Why? What is the desired benefit from this that it's to be put into a standard?

Here's the good news description of it. Kind of unclear why it's so important as to put into every Wifi device though https://beyondstandards.ieee.org/ieee-802-11bf-aims-to-enable-a-new-application-of-wlan-technology-wlan-sensing/ https://beyondstandards.ieee.org/ieee-802-11bf-aims-to-enabl...

codetrotter 5y ago
From the link you posted: > Measurements obtained with WLAN sensing can be used to support new industrial and commercial applications in semiconductor manufacturing, enterprise networking, and test and measurement equipment. The standard will also benefit end user applications, such as home security, entertainment, energy management (HVAC, light, device power savings), home elderly care, and assisted living. Sounds reasonable. I still worry about what it means for privacy in our homes, and for the future with ever more surveillance and erosion of our rights.
- rapjr9 5y ago
  I would guess that setting up a WiFi receiver outside of anyones living space but within signal range is not illegal if you are not intercepting and decoding packets, so anyone could currently get visibility into any home with WiFi. Police, neighbors, crooks, anyone. However there is some precedent for police, they are not allowed to use thermal viewers to look through the walls of peoples homes without a warrant. This would seem to be similar. It's been disconcerting that the police have just adopted technologies because they think they would be useful without anyone considering whether a warrant should be required. There should be a law saying that any technology use by police requires a warrant unless it has been specifically allowed to be warrantless. There are some good uses of a WiFi tracker though, such as an automated health monitor. I'd like to have a continuous record of where I am in my house. I could use it to tell how much time I spend on a computer, how much sleep I get, what I spend most of my time doing, how much exercise I get, where I left some object, lots of things. I just don't want other people or companies to have all that information and I don't want the police or government to be able to get it without a warrant.
hungryforcodes 5y ago
I'm not sure why you think this is good news: "The technology can measure range, velocity, and angular information; detect motion, presence, or proximity; detect objects, people, and animals; and be used in rooms, houses, cars, and enterprise environments." It seems incredibly invasive. Can some peeping tom just turn on his WiFi base station to track if the next door neighbour he is obsessed with has a guy over...if she's in her bedroom...is in the shower...you get the idea. Creepy stuff!
- gonzo41 5y ago
  Time to buy shares in CAT 5 :P
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  I'd love to have this for home automation purposes, but I can't be in favour of this knowing what the standard FAANG companies will probably abuse this standard for, let alone scummy ISPs.
  - znpy 5y ago
    I expect dumb limitations like "too many people around you, you must buy a more expensive plan to play this audio"
  - belter 5y ago
    It will probably turn off your lights when your neighbor goes to sleep.
  - mattlutze 5y ago
    As something to install and run for yourself? Sounds cool in theory but awful for your neighbors, and what should be a no go generally. Think of areas where liberty and privacy are conditional, or indeed as a fundamental feature that any ISP could turn on by default in their mandatory router/modem boxes?
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      If it works reliably, it could make it trivial to implement things like "turn off the lights 10 minutes after everyone has left the room" and "turn on the lights when someone enters". Right now you can still do that with presence sensors, but they're annoying and require hardware for every corner of the room to work reliably. With its band steering capabilities, I'm convinced WiFi can already make an approximation of your location. It can't deal with things like reflection and interference for positioning of course, but it's still pretty close to working already. Of course, I mean this as something I'd like to turn on and integrate into Home Assistant, not as something that every ISP router should come with (which is what I fear will probably happen).

lyaa 5y ago

The decision of what gets added to such standards is largely a combination of politics and what is actively being used. Some companies and research labs wanted it to be added and they lobbied successfully for it. This technology is already usable with many existing routers, though to a lesser degree. The standard is meant to define expectations of how the technology is implemented in future 'SENS' devices. I guess it could be useful for AR/VR or replace Bluetooth in some location sensing applications (like in stores tracking movement patterns, or monitoring systems for dementia patients living alone). I dislike how this additional privacy infraction is going to be the norm in a few years.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

They will sell you thief protection, alarm if chidren or pets move to certain places, rbnb tooling and so on. And now that we all have micrphones and gps in our pockets, we will also accept 3d live mapping of our lives. Because "we have nothing to hide"

zalebz 5y ago

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."

brummm 5y ago

Enterprises already use Wifi to track customers in stores (albeit in a very simple way compared to the new capabilities). This will enable stores to track customers to a much higher degree.