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Well, I have two reactions to this: 1) "Drop the pants" doesn't offend me 2) I don't know why it's assumed kimono is a reference to a garment exclusively worn

Well, I have two reactions to this: 1) "Drop the pants" doesn't offend me 2) I don't know why it's assumed kimono is a reference to a garment exclusively worn by women and certainly the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women" The best evidence I can find online suggests its a reference from feudal Japan where one could prove one wasn't harbouring any weapons. However, I do agree that when someone says, "this language is demeaning and hurtful to me", that you should at least reflect internally on whether that's a valid position for them to hold and if so change your own behaviour to cease using a certain phrase. The bit that stumps me, and I mean I'm totally flummoxed here, is what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that? EDIT: Actually, I just had a reaction to this, which is when someone else polices my phrasing, I feel misrepresented and attacked. Especially when there exists enough ambiguity that it would be impossible to determine whether there was intent or some hitherto unearthed entrenched bias in my choice of words. So now we're in a circular argument. I feel victimised, and they feel victimised. Oh gosh, now I'm having flashbacks of past toxic relationships.

unityByFreedom 5y ago
> the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women" It seems like a strong possibility to me. If someone told me something I was saying offended them, I'd stop using it in their presence and would reconsider using it in general. It's just common courtesy and in this case it's easy to see how someone could interpret it as a sexualized phrase even if you didn't intend it that way. In short, that's not a hill worth dying on, online or IRL.
unityByFreedom 5y ago
> what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? In this case you ask at least one 3rd party, maybe more. Some of your mentors should be similar to the person who feels victimized, in this case a woman. So do that in real life where you know them, not online. > What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that? Haha, that's pretty funny and apt. Lead with that when you ask for advice on this. > I feel victimised, and they feel victimised. That's also fine. You deserve to have your concerns heard. When someone else is the first to raise a concern with you, it's necessary to listen to them first. Then when they indicate they feel understood (you can ask them directly), you can follow with your concern.
- kungfufrog 5y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful and considered replies, lots of food for thought! I genuinely wish to understand how to approach these issues better in terms of my own internal thought processes but also how others feel. At some point though, I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    > I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time. Good news, you're on the right track. Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step. Many people don't get there. If you're introspective, get some self help books. John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus [1] can open doors to understanding the opposite sex, even if you don't agree with everything he writes. The crux of the problem is we all assume everyone wants the same thing, and we do, but we prioritize things differently. So, people spend a lot of time giving what they want to receive because that's what they want. Then we feel empty and spent. It's like if I like coffee and you like milk. I keep gifting you coffee and you keep gifting me milk. Neither of us "feel whole" from these transactions. The gifts don't feel thoughtful to the recipient. Meanwhile, we think we have everything we want, yet we know something's missing and we can't figure it out. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
yata69420 5y ago
> What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that? Hello, HR? kungfufrog is implying that I'm easy and it's making me uncomfortable.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

> the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women" It seems like a strong possibility to me. If someone told me something I was saying offended them, I'd stop using it in their presence and would reconsider using it in general. It's just common courtesy and in this case it's easy to see how someone could interpret it as a sexualized phrase even if you didn't intend it that way. In short, that's not a hill worth dying on, online or IRL.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

> what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? In this case you ask at least one 3rd party, maybe more. Some of your mentors should be similar to the person who feels victimized, in this case a woman. So do that in real life where you know them, not online. > What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that? Haha, that's pretty funny and apt. Lead with that when you ask for advice on this. > I feel victimised, and they feel victimised. That's also fine. You deserve to have your concerns heard. When someone else is the first to raise a concern with you, it's necessary to listen to them first. Then when they indicate they feel understood (you can ask them directly), you can follow with your concern.

kungfufrog 5y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful and considered replies, lots of food for thought! I genuinely wish to understand how to approach these issues better in terms of my own internal thought processes but also how others feel. At some point though, I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  > I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time. Good news, you're on the right track. Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step. Many people don't get there. If you're introspective, get some self help books. John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus [1] can open doors to understanding the opposite sex, even if you don't agree with everything he writes. The crux of the problem is we all assume everyone wants the same thing, and we do, but we prioritize things differently. So, people spend a lot of time giving what they want to receive because that's what they want. Then we feel empty and spent. It's like if I like coffee and you like milk. I keep gifting you coffee and you keep gifting me milk. Neither of us "feel whole" from these transactions. The gifts don't feel thoughtful to the recipient. Meanwhile, we think we have everything we want, yet we know something's missing and we can't figure it out. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

yata69420 5y ago

> What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that? Hello, HR? kungfufrog is implying that I'm easy and it's making me uncomfortable.