6 ms·

And as an American, Germans/Australians/etc. will still insist they're more free than me because of something arbitrary like free healthcare. I don't think ther

• djrogers 5y ago
  It would be hard to argue that a country where it's illegal to call someone a dick is particularly free, if that indeed is the case.
  • WastingMyTime89 5y ago
    Then most of the world isn't free I fear. Why should it be legal to publicly insult someone? You can't punch people in the USA. Does that make the country not particularly free?
    • tomschlick 5y ago
      Insulting someone with words and punching them in the face are two drastically different things.
      • ms4720 5y ago
        And be very very wary of people and groups that try to erase the difference.
      • WastingMyTime89 5y ago
        Because as an American you put the border at physical violence but think verbal violence doesn't matter. You see that as freedom. I see it as a lack of culture. Far more than an ocean separates these two continents. Note that it is entirely play pretend anyway. I know for a fact that I can actually say and do far more here than the American society would tolerate in the USA.
        • zepto 5y ago
          It’s not much of a ‘culture’ if politeness has to be enforced by the government. For what it’s worth, having lived in both places Americans are less likely to insult you than the British, but more likely to take it seriously.
        • tomschlick 5y ago
          Because the line of physical violence is pretty clear cut. The line at which someone gets offended is not and can vary drastically depending on the person, religion, current events, etc. Laws need clear definitions.
          • WastingMyTime89 5y ago
            Insulting someone has an actual definition. It is not about being offended.
            • thaumasiotes 5y ago
              Whatever definition you provide, there will be an infinite number of insults that don't match it, or an infinite number of compliments that do.
            • hervature 5y ago
              Is calling someone fat when they are indeed fat an insult? It obviously depends on context, intent, and delivery. Any definition is going to be nebulous.
            • yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
              > Because as an American you put the border at physical violence but think verbal violence doesn't matter. You see that as freedom. I see it as a lack of culture. Far more than an ocean separates these two continents. This, for instance, is clearly an insult; please report to the nearest detention center for your reeducation immediately. /s But seriously, no; insults are subjective enough to be a terrible legal basis.
        • yann2 5y ago
    • throwawaylinux 5y ago
      > Then most of the world isn't free I fear. I fear that too. Freedom has always been paid for with blood, so if it's just meekly handed back, we are robbing our grandchildren and passing that cost on to them. That said, what parts of the world are you talking about? If you look at the insults being freely hurled on twitter at politicians around the the English speaking western world, I'm not sure how bad it is here yet. Maybe it's only a problem there if you insult the wrong type of politician? > Why should it be legal to publicly insult someone? How do you define an insult? Would it be insulting to call someone a nazi, white supremacist, racist, misogynist, Russian agent, heartless, senile? What if those things were true or you believed them to be true or at least a valid comparison to some degree? What if you call a religion or ideology bad or point out bad things about its teachings? Even if what you say is true, it can still be taken as insults by followers. Should blasphemy be outlawed? > You can't punch people in the USA. Does that make the country not particularly free? It does not.
    • ogma 5y ago
      Because any criticism can be construed as an insult, which is plainly obvious. Honestly how did you become so naive? Are you American? What's wrong with you?
    • zepto 5y ago
      Can you not tell the difference between physical violence and words?
      • WastingMyTime89 5y ago
        Worlds can hurt just as much if not more. Insults are unneeded. They are unnecessary to a discussion and they are a form of violence. Why should they be legal?
        • zepto 5y ago
          > Worlds can hurt just as much if not more. Only if you compare words with the most trivial of physical violence. > Insults are unneeded. They are unnecessary to a discussion and they are a form of violence. Why should they be legal? This is dismissive of my perspective and therefore insulting. I think you should be arrested. Maybe the cops and the judge will agree with me.
        • Levitz 5y ago
          >Worlds can hurt just as much if not more. I'm sorry but that only applies if you are thoroughly infantile. I don't mean this as an offense but that behavior is proper of literal children. If some random person says a word and that has serious consequences upon the mental health of an adult person that person needs therapy.
    • PixyMisa 5y ago
      > Then most of the world isn't free I fear. Well, exactly.
    • ALittleLight 5y ago
      Some states in the US allow "mutual combat", meaning that if both parties agree to fight you actually can legally punch people in the US.
      • syntheticcorp 5y ago
        I assume other countries allowing boxing matches?
    • Levitz 5y ago
      >Why should it be legal to publicly insult someone? I consider an insult to be an expression of an opinion and thus protected by the 19th article of the universal declaration of human rights. As far as I am concerned, ideally such blatant misuse of power in such an authoritarian way should land people in jail.
  • tpush 5y ago
    It's actually very easy to do that, for example: Murder: People lose the freedom to murder people, but gain the freedom to not be murdered. American society considers taking the first freedom away to result in better society overall. Germany does the same. Insults: People lose the freedom to insult other people, but gain the freedom not to be insulted. German society considers taking away the first freedom to result in a better society overall. Americans take the opposite side here. See, it's actually not at all a naive question of "who has more freedom", because each side can be argued to be more free than the other. Ultimately, it comes down to what choice results in a 'better', more livable society. Germany and the US simply make different tradeoffs.
  • nautilius 5y ago
    If you think the first amendment ensures your right to call anyone a dick, I suggest you go to the nearest cop you can find and start insulting him, his mother, his family, his children. I am sure if you tell him you’re just exercising your first amendment right, he will endure this for hours without batting an eye.
• jdavis703 5y ago
  It’s possible for a democratic political system to exist, and still prohibit insulting politicians. It’s quite possible to criticize any politician without resulting to ad hominem attacks. Even the former US Vice President Dick Cheney nearly faced consequences for violating senate rules by telling a senator to “go f___ himself.”
  • charia 5y ago
    Do you genuinely believe that laws that try to separate criticize versus insult can work? I can't see anything other than laws like that being abused by politicians and government officials to quell speech and create a chilling effect amongst the populace.
    • Retric 5y ago
      Dueling used to be acceptable in the US and that didn’t prevent free speech. As long as it’s limited to reasonable fines simply requiring civility is unlikely to significantly quell free speech even if it did get abused by government officials.
      • kook_throwaway 5y ago
        >As long as it’s limited to reasonable fines This will only result in those not living paycheck to paycheck being willing to speak out.
        • jdavis703 5y ago
          If this were true, then low-income people wouldn’t speed or run red lights. (In reality they still do it, they just wind up in debt trap.)
    • jdavis703 5y ago
      It seems to be working fine for Germany. In general I believe the chilling effect is often moderated by the Streisand effect.
  • 5y ago
• lmm 5y ago
  Are they wrong? Which is more likely to affect any given individual? Which country do you have the best chance of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in?
  • tomschlick 5y ago
    > Which country do you have the best chance of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in? Judging by immigration numbers, the US.
    • lmm 5y ago
      Germany has a higher proportion of immigrants than the US, so how do you figure that?
      • tomschlick 5y ago
        Proportions don't matter in this case. Individuals immigrating each year and the waitlist to do so does. Otherwise you're comparing admission policies instead of the will to live in that place.
        • lmm 5y ago
          Comparing absolute numbers is surely meaningless - if the US was arbitrarily split in half, there would be half as many immigrants to each half, but that wouldn't mean the US was suddenly half as attractive to immigrate to.
      • zepto 5y ago
        Only counting new immigrants over a very short recent period.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • chuckee 5y ago
    > Which is more likely to affect any given individual? That metric is hilariously wrong. Consider a country with universal healthcare, but where only a single political party is allowed. You're much more likely to face medical issues in your life, than wanting to start your own party and being prevented. Does that make the one-party-state more free than every country without universal healthcare? In other words, by phrasing it as "freedom to live in comfort and safety", you are conflating comfort and safety with freedom.
• simonh 5y ago
  I suppose it depends how you look at it. There are different kinds of freedom. My main concern in the US is the absurd levels of incarceration over there, often for relatively trivial nonviolent offences that aren’t even crimes in many countries, and the politicisation of the judicial system. I’m a lot more confident I’d get fair treatment from the justice system in most European countries than I would in the US. The relationship between the police and the public in the states also seems dangerously adversarial and does not inspire me with confidence.
  • l33t2328 5y ago
    > offences that aren’t even crimes in many countries Like what? Drugs are becoming decriminalized the world over, but this is an extremely recent phenomenon.
    • milesvp 5y ago
      Like driving while poor. It’s very very common for someone to get a fine that they can not pay, then lose their drivers license for failure to pay. Then get stopped and have to deal with driving without a license, which can include jail time. Source: good friend was a public defender.
      • l33t2328 5y ago
        Other countries don’t arrest people who drive without a license? I’ll need to see worldwide numbers, American numbers, and an exemplar list of laws before I accept such a broad conclusion.
        • simonh 5y ago
          I can't speak for other countries, but here in the UK courts can be resistant to charges snowballing like this against a defendant as it's a recognised problem. Fines can be delayed, split into instalments, reduced or put pending against credit history for up to 5 years - although if they find you are able to pay but unwilling they get tough fast. DWL can result in longer suspension of a license, fines, or community service. It does help that traveling by public transport here is a lot less likely to be a problem, to be fair.
• codewithcheese 5y ago
  > more free than me How are we meant to make sense of your comment, if you don't state which country your from/in? I see this often, commenters presuming we know which country they are in.
  • jimmaswell 5y ago
    "as an American" referred to me
    • codewithcheese 5y ago
      Ahhhhh, My parser failed on that terse grammar. Doh!
• PixyMisa 5y ago
  Not many Australians insisting they're more free right now.
• nautilius 5y ago
  How about using public places in a way you see fit (while not endangering others), e.g. skateboarding or biking in town? How about letting your kids go to school or to a playground without perpetual parental surveillance, without you being persecuted? How about the right to sit at a beach in whatever (non)clothing you want? How about just changing into your swimming shorts just there on the beach? How about only being prosecuted for DUI if you were actually under the influence, and not because a passenger had a bottle of beer in their hand? How about sitting with your friends in any city square in summer, listening to street musicians and drink a beer, and then walk to the next bar while drinking your beer? How about just playing music on the radio without censoring ‘bad words’, and even having censored CDs in the stores? How about someone cursing on national television without this becoming a scandal, or someone showing a breast on television as a singer on stage without it ending your career? How about driving as fast as you want? And to your example: how about having actual choice of leaving a job because health insurance is not tied to a job? (Yeah I know, with COBRA you can simply pay a couple thousand a month and just keep your insurance) How about being able to actually retire in old age and not having to work at Waffle House and Walmart with 80? How about yelling at some asshole in the parking lot without being legally shot dead because of stand-your-ground? How about the freedom to study at a college of your choosing, without admission scandals and bribery, and without ruining your future with 6 digit debt? How about freedom from religion, and still being electable for high office as atheist? How about never having to worry whether you are in a good enough area of town to just drive through? How about freely choosing your health insurance rather than being forced to pick one of the two your employer has contracts with? How about freely choosing internet / power / gas, with the dramatic drops in price that go along with competition in a free market?
• rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Until you get stopped in Nevada and your possessions are ceased by the cops. Or until you get swatted. Or you piss Elon Musk off and he sends cops after you.