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> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chin

> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. That would be the best thing that ever happened to the rest of the world, and to Chinese citizens as well. China has long abused its citizens to undercut global prices on manufactured goods. Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison); and wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world. In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive.

hker 5y ago
> In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive. During the Great Leap Forward around 1958-1962, an estimated 15 to 55 millions died in China due to famine, while China was still a net exporter of grain (to Cuba and Africa). Another data point to support your point.
- cma 5y ago
  Ireland was a net exporter of food during the potato famine, from appeals to laissez-faire capitalism.
  - TimTheTinker 5y ago
    That was due to abusive behavior on England's part. Every country and every political leader is capable of committing atrocities. But overall, rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government.
    - yunohn 5y ago
      > rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government I believe that both are exploitative, just that developed democracy is better at hiding it - either internally through low wage labor or by exporting to developing countries.
Aunche 5y ago
We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. A sanction damages the participants as much as its target. This doesn't matter if your target is a smaller country like Iran or even Russia, but China is way to big an exporter to sanction. >Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison) So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead? >wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world. China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. Do you expect wages to increase by an order of magnitude overnight? Also, why would you blame China for this instead of the importers demanding razor thin margins or manufactured goods?
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  > We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. The ends don't justify the means when those means are morally wrong. Morally wrong means create collateral damage that I believe will haunt us for generations to come. (I'm sure you can think of various 20th century dictators whose actions still haunt the world.) > China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. That's good, but it's more a result of Jintao's relaxed policy than the current president's policy. Not that I approve of Jintao - he was as much an authoritarian leader as those that preceded him.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead What do you think a labor camp is, actually? It’s forced manual labor, done for the benefit of the non-imprisoned populace. I don’t believe there’s much of a difference between being forced to manufacture goods versus rotting in a prison - both are horrible. Mass shutdown of factories might actually spur some protest from the general populace and shed light on the plight of the imprisoned.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    >It’s forced manual labor, done for the benefit of the non-imprisoned populace. From what I understand, when the media talks about an Apple supplier exploiting Uighurs for example, they're talking about a factory that employs willing people and others who are forced to find a job or else they'll be sent back to a detention camp. This is terrible, but it's not comparable to being sent off to a laogai camp. >Mass shutdown of factories might actually spur some protest from the general populace and shed light on the plight of the imprisoned. Someone desperate for work won't give a damn about the plight of others. This goes for the Chinese who will angry at what they perceive as western hegemony, and the people who would lose their jobs at home.

hker 5y ago

> In the early 1930s, the USSR survived by shipping so much grain out of Ukraine that by 1933, 25% of the Ukrainian populace had died. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes always abuse people one way or another to survive. During the Great Leap Forward around 1958-1962, an estimated 15 to 55 millions died in China due to famine, while China was still a net exporter of grain (to Cuba and Africa). Another data point to support your point.

cma 5y ago
Ireland was a net exporter of food during the potato famine, from appeals to laissez-faire capitalism.
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  That was due to abusive behavior on England's part. Every country and every political leader is capable of committing atrocities. But overall, rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > rule-of-law democracy is much better at mitigating that than other forms of government I believe that both are exploitative, just that developed democracy is better at hiding it - either internally through low wage labor or by exporting to developing countries.

Aunche 5y ago

We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. A sanction damages the participants as much as its target. This doesn't matter if your target is a smaller country like Iran or even Russia, but China is way to big an exporter to sanction. >Their political and religious prisoners are very often put to work in factories (if not sent to work camps or tortured in prison) So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead? >wages for factory work are very low compared to the rest of the world. China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. Do you expect wages to increase by an order of magnitude overnight? Also, why would you blame China for this instead of the importers demanding razor thin margins or manufactured goods?

TimTheTinker 5y ago
> We wouldn't be trading with China if it didn't benefit us. The ends don't justify the means when those means are morally wrong. Morally wrong means create collateral damage that I believe will haunt us for generations to come. (I'm sure you can think of various 20th century dictators whose actions still haunt the world.) > China's average wage more than doubled over the past 10 years. That's good, but it's more a result of Jintao's relaxed policy than the current president's policy. Not that I approve of Jintao - he was as much an authoritarian leader as those that preceded him.
yunohn 5y ago
> So you want them to shut down the factories, in which case they'll be sent to be sent to labor camps or rot in prison instead What do you think a labor camp is, actually? It’s forced manual labor, done for the benefit of the non-imprisoned populace. I don’t believe there’s much of a difference between being forced to manufacture goods versus rotting in a prison - both are horrible. Mass shutdown of factories might actually spur some protest from the general populace and shed light on the plight of the imprisoned.
- Aunche 5y ago
  >It’s forced manual labor, done for the benefit of the non-imprisoned populace. From what I understand, when the media talks about an Apple supplier exploiting Uighurs for example, they're talking about a factory that employs willing people and others who are forced to find a job or else they'll be sent back to a detention camp. This is terrible, but it's not comparable to being sent off to a laogai camp. >Mass shutdown of factories might actually spur some protest from the general populace and shed light on the plight of the imprisoned. Someone desperate for work won't give a damn about the plight of others. This goes for the Chinese who will angry at what they perceive as western hegemony, and the people who would lose their jobs at home.