5 ms·

How much pro-social good is required to force me to take a medical treatment I do not consent to?

tfehring 5y ago
A lot - that’s why I strongly oppose government vaccine mandates except in contexts where the magnitude of that pro-social good is far above the baseline - e.g., for healthcare workers. Thankfully, the “or test” part distinguishes this from a vaccine mandate. We should have been testing most of the population since last March, and if anything we should have stronger testing requirements than this guidance dictates.
White_Wolf 5y ago
I don't think anyone should be forced to take any medicine against their will as long as they are not in a coma or incapacitated and unable to reason. I personally had the vaccine because I have very high blood pressure, have pretty high blood sugar (even though I'm fit/in shape) and am almost 40. It was MY CHOICE in the risk vs reward game of numbers it I did it only for myself with a good life insurance already in place that covers death/incapacity from medication too(covers COVID vaccines too). What if I would of ended up like that BBC presenter? Dead. For me it's down to my family and that is it. This will be a bit exagerated but (hopefully) shold get the point across: At the end of the day anyone else is disposable as long as my family is safe from harm. As long as the vaccine is not 100% safe nobody should be allowed to force anyone else to take it. Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe?
- md_ 5y ago
  > Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe? The mRNA vaccines do appear to reduce risk (of infection and of symptoms) in recovered patients as well. (See e.g. https://theconversation.com/if-ive-already-had-covid-do-i-need-a-vaccine-and-how-does-the-immune-system-respond-an-expert-explains-164236 https://theconversation.com/if-ive-already-had-covid-do-i-ne...) That said, the German "geimpft, getestet, oder genesen" strategy ("vaccinated, tested, or recovered") is explicitly what you suggest. The tradeoff here, to me, is that: - If we do not mandate vaccination, people can preserve their individual autonomy and will, nonetheless, probably get infected sooner or later and thus have some immunity. (According to some research, greater than that of vaccinated people against the same strain, but perhaps reduced against other strains.) - However, that relies upon maintaining sufficient hospital capacity for the additional cases with severe symptoms. So as long as hospital capacity remains an issue, mandatory vaccinations make sense.
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    From the heart: respect to Germany for that policy. I'm assuming you're in Germany/know someone in Germany when asking this and you might of heard something about it: -Is it true that Hungarians are using some sort of medication as treatment? I heard it from a guy at work(hungarian) and was stumped.
    - md_ 5y ago
      I'm not and I have not heard that. Maybe they're taking horse dewormer. ;)
thehappypm 5y ago
Non-zero. If COVID had a 100% death rate and was contagious like COVID we’d be vaccinating everyone against their will.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  Such efforts would likely grind to a halt after the first several waves of vaccination crew member killings. There are a lot of unhinged people out there and forced vaccination crosses a red line.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    A 100% death rate would look a lot like Bird Box. Probably a society ender.
betterunix2 5y ago
How much was required for mandatory polio vaccination? MMR? Smallpox? Vaccine requirements have been commonplace for decades now, and society has greatly benefited from it.

A lot - that’s why I strongly oppose government vaccine mandates except in contexts where the magnitude of that pro-social good is far above the baseline - e.g., for healthcare workers. Thankfully, the “or test” part distinguishes this from a vaccine mandate. We should have been testing most of the population since last March, and if anything we should have stronger testing requirements than this guidance dictates.

White_Wolf 5y ago

I don't think anyone should be forced to take any medicine against their will as long as they are not in a coma or incapacitated and unable to reason. I personally had the vaccine because I have very high blood pressure, have pretty high blood sugar (even though I'm fit/in shape) and am almost 40. It was MY CHOICE in the risk vs reward game of numbers it I did it only for myself with a good life insurance already in place that covers death/incapacity from medication too(covers COVID vaccines too). What if I would of ended up like that BBC presenter? Dead. For me it's down to my family and that is it. This will be a bit exagerated but (hopefully) shold get the point across: At the end of the day anyone else is disposable as long as my family is safe from harm. As long as the vaccine is not 100% safe nobody should be allowed to force anyone else to take it. Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe?

md_ 5y ago
> Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe? The mRNA vaccines do appear to reduce risk (of infection and of symptoms) in recovered patients as well. (See e.g. https://theconversation.com/if-ive-already-had-covid-do-i-need-a-vaccine-and-how-does-the-immune-system-respond-an-expert-explains-164236 https://theconversation.com/if-ive-already-had-covid-do-i-ne...) That said, the German "geimpft, getestet, oder genesen" strategy ("vaccinated, tested, or recovered") is explicitly what you suggest. The tradeoff here, to me, is that: - If we do not mandate vaccination, people can preserve their individual autonomy and will, nonetheless, probably get infected sooner or later and thus have some immunity. (According to some research, greater than that of vaccinated people against the same strain, but perhaps reduced against other strains.) - However, that relies upon maintaining sufficient hospital capacity for the additional cases with severe symptoms. So as long as hospital capacity remains an issue, mandatory vaccinations make sense.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  From the heart: respect to Germany for that policy. I'm assuming you're in Germany/know someone in Germany when asking this and you might of heard something about it: -Is it true that Hungarians are using some sort of medication as treatment? I heard it from a guy at work(hungarian) and was stumped.
  - md_ 5y ago
    I'm not and I have not heard that. Maybe they're taking horse dewormer. ;)

thehappypm 5y ago

Non-zero. If COVID had a 100% death rate and was contagious like COVID we’d be vaccinating everyone against their will.

captainredbeard 5y ago
Such efforts would likely grind to a halt after the first several waves of vaccination crew member killings. There are a lot of unhinged people out there and forced vaccination crosses a red line.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  A 100% death rate would look a lot like Bird Box. Probably a society ender.

betterunix2 5y ago

How much was required for mandatory polio vaccination? MMR? Smallpox? Vaccine requirements have been commonplace for decades now, and society has greatly benefited from it.