5 ms·

New horizons for SPJ

145 points by msszczep2 5y ago

wk_end 5y ago
I wonder if this is because Microsoft Research is no longer interested in funding his research, or if for whatever reason SPJ is just seeking greener pastures. Either way, it's a blow to MSR - SPJ is such a luminary in the world of Haskell/PLT. Best wishes for whatever he winds up doing next; no doubt it'll be great.
- ampdepolymerase 5y ago
  Not necessarily, young blood is always good. Having a single academic dominate the discussion is never good.
  - sjcoles 5y ago
    Two Haskellers enter a bar. Two hours later both leave more confused than when they entered. This is what got me with Haskell. Any question is derailed into theory to the point where getting anything done is difficult.
    - butterisgood 5y ago
      I've shipped stuff written in Haskell almost 2 times... but actually one time. It's not that bad. Honestly the only reason we shipped it was because the prototype I did in it worked too well. I had a backup almost ready in time written in C++ in case it got too tricky for others to maintain, and it was a simple component in a larger software stack.
    - cole-k 5y ago
      I would be careful making such generalizations lest you give this vocal minority of haskellers more reason to believe that non-haskellers are luddites (edit: can you use the word "luddite" to refer to people who don't like theory? Probably not but pretend that's what it means).
      - sjcoles 5y ago
        I've used Haskell for a few personal projects (GHC 6.8-7.0 timeframe). It is great but I stand by my statement that the community's obsession with complexity (even if it's simpler from a category or maths sense) is the issue. Haskell's community is almost *obsessed* with increasing cognitive load IMO. I want to make things not argue about the best, or most technically correct, way to make them.
        ebingdom 5y ago
        > It is great but I stand by my statement that the community's obsession with complexity (even if it's simpler from a category or maths sense) is the issue. Haskell's community is almost obsessed with increasing cognitive load IMO. Personally, I consider it more complex to have to think about what side effects every piece of code has and what order things are evaluated in. The fact that I don't have to worry about these things in Haskell is a breath of fresh air for me. Also, not having to deal with the complexity of OOP when an ordinary function will do. I think it's a misconception that Haskell is more complex than whatever popular OOP language people are using. It just looks more complex because it's less familiar (which I think is a problem with what we teach students in school).
        LandR 5y ago
        > it just looks more complex because it's less familiar This is a problem I have at work. Everyone here thinks unfamiliar and hard / complex are synonyms. They aren't!
        tome 5y ago
        Agreed. I use Haskell because it decreases my cognitive load.
        JadeNB 5y ago
        > I want to make things not argue about the best, or most technically correct, way to make them. Well, not all programming languages are for all people, and there are people who prefer the theoretical approach. Calling that an obsession with complexity is, I think, unfair, or at least inaccurate.
    - elihu 5y ago
      "If your confusion leads you in the right direction, the results can be uncommonly rewarding" --Haruki Murakami, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World (as translated to English)
ranguski 5y ago
Weirdly, there are many who leaving MSFT in general. Looks like they are doing something wrong.
- phillipcarter 5y ago
  (I left MS recently) Eh, I don't think it's any different than the general trend of people moving around. 23 years at a company would indicate that it's been a pretty solid place to work.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    At the same time, leaving after 23 years for a reason other than retirement suggests something changed. I have no insight into the company as you do, but that is the first impression I’d get from the circumstances. People don’t stay at a company for 23 years only to jump ship for the same reasons early-career people jump around.
    - dagw 5y ago
      Or you realize that you've spent basically your entire professional career at one place and this is your last chance to try something different.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
  Bureaucracy.
- dagw 5y ago
  He's been at Microsoft for 23 years and it's basically the only company he's ever worked at. He's also over 60. I can't blame him for wanting to try something else with the tail end of his career.
- gpt5 5y ago
  The entire industry is experiencing an unusually high Turnover.
- dfgjnirf 5y ago
maxpert 5y ago
The fact that there is more discussion here vs the Haskell forum is weird. I've not used Haskell myself but aspire to use it someday. I wish him best of luck!
- george_____t 5y ago
  That Haskell forum is newish and isn't used much. There's more discussion on r/haskell.
sys_64738 5y ago
These chaps always have doors open elsewhere through contacts. I'd expect he'll show up at another major company or university within six months.
andybak 5y ago
I know we're not supposed to question these things but the edit to this title made it worse.
JNRowe 5y ago
Anecdote time: I attended a Haskell event at MSR some fifteen years ago, and one of my overwhelming memories is how approachable and friendly SPJ is. I had some pretty stupid questions around the topic he was presenting(STM), and he answered them with great vigour and clarity afterwards. This does feel like a significant loss to MSR, and a massive gain for wherever he ends up. Fingers crossed it is a teaching role, as I'd like to think we'd all benefit from turning a few more SPJs loose on the world. There is a recent MSR podcast episode with SPJ and Andy Gordon that is definitely worth a listen¹. It dips in to their histories, and also their work on Excel. ¹ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/podcast/advancing-excel-as-a-programming-language-with-andy-gordon-and-simon-peyton-jones/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/podcast/advancing-e... Edit: My other memory was the sheer level of professionalism in the support staff at MSR Cambridge, I simply can't recall anywhere I've been where the support staff have been as helpful and courteous as they were there.

145 points by msszczep2 5y ago

I wonder if this is because Microsoft Research is no longer interested in funding his research, or if for whatever reason SPJ is just seeking greener pastures. Either way, it's a blow to MSR - SPJ is such a luminary in the world of Haskell/PLT. Best wishes for whatever he winds up doing next; no doubt it'll be great.

ampdepolymerase 5y ago
Not necessarily, young blood is always good. Having a single academic dominate the discussion is never good.
- sjcoles 5y ago
  Two Haskellers enter a bar. Two hours later both leave more confused than when they entered. This is what got me with Haskell. Any question is derailed into theory to the point where getting anything done is difficult.
  - butterisgood 5y ago
    I've shipped stuff written in Haskell almost 2 times... but actually one time. It's not that bad. Honestly the only reason we shipped it was because the prototype I did in it worked too well. I had a backup almost ready in time written in C++ in case it got too tricky for others to maintain, and it was a simple component in a larger software stack.
  - cole-k 5y ago
    I would be careful making such generalizations lest you give this vocal minority of haskellers more reason to believe that non-haskellers are luddites (edit: can you use the word "luddite" to refer to people who don't like theory? Probably not but pretend that's what it means).
    - sjcoles 5y ago
      I've used Haskell for a few personal projects (GHC 6.8-7.0 timeframe). It is great but I stand by my statement that the community's obsession with complexity (even if it's simpler from a category or maths sense) is the issue. Haskell's community is almost *obsessed* with increasing cognitive load IMO. I want to make things not argue about the best, or most technically correct, way to make them.
      - ebingdom 5y ago
        > It is great but I stand by my statement that the community's obsession with complexity (even if it's simpler from a category or maths sense) is the issue. Haskell's community is almost obsessed with increasing cognitive load IMO. Personally, I consider it more complex to have to think about what side effects every piece of code has and what order things are evaluated in. The fact that I don't have to worry about these things in Haskell is a breath of fresh air for me. Also, not having to deal with the complexity of OOP when an ordinary function will do. I think it's a misconception that Haskell is more complex than whatever popular OOP language people are using. It just looks more complex because it's less familiar (which I think is a problem with what we teach students in school).
        LandR 5y ago
        > it just looks more complex because it's less familiar This is a problem I have at work. Everyone here thinks unfamiliar and hard / complex are synonyms. They aren't!
        tome 5y ago
        Agreed. I use Haskell because it decreases my cognitive load.
      - JadeNB 5y ago
        > I want to make things not argue about the best, or most technically correct, way to make them. Well, not all programming languages are for all people, and there are people who prefer the theoretical approach. Calling that an obsession with complexity is, I think, unfair, or at least inaccurate.
  - elihu 5y ago
    "If your confusion leads you in the right direction, the results can be uncommonly rewarding" --Haruki Murakami, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World (as translated to English)

ranguski 5y ago

Weirdly, there are many who leaving MSFT in general. Looks like they are doing something wrong.

phillipcarter 5y ago
(I left MS recently) Eh, I don't think it's any different than the general trend of people moving around. 23 years at a company would indicate that it's been a pretty solid place to work.
- garmaine 5y ago
  At the same time, leaving after 23 years for a reason other than retirement suggests something changed. I have no insight into the company as you do, but that is the first impression I’d get from the circumstances. People don’t stay at a company for 23 years only to jump ship for the same reasons early-career people jump around.
  - dagw 5y ago
    Or you realize that you've spent basically your entire professional career at one place and this is your last chance to try something different.
xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
Bureaucracy.
dagw 5y ago
He's been at Microsoft for 23 years and it's basically the only company he's ever worked at. He's also over 60. I can't blame him for wanting to try something else with the tail end of his career.
gpt5 5y ago
The entire industry is experiencing an unusually high Turnover.
dfgjnirf 5y ago

maxpert 5y ago

The fact that there is more discussion here vs the Haskell forum is weird. I've not used Haskell myself but aspire to use it someday. I wish him best of luck!

george_____t 5y ago
That Haskell forum is newish and isn't used much. There's more discussion on r/haskell.

sys_64738 5y ago

These chaps always have doors open elsewhere through contacts. I'd expect he'll show up at another major company or university within six months.

andybak 5y ago

I know we're not supposed to question these things but the edit to this title made it worse.

JNRowe 5y ago

Anecdote time: I attended a Haskell event at MSR some fifteen years ago, and one of my overwhelming memories is how approachable and friendly SPJ is. I had some pretty stupid questions around the topic he was presenting(STM), and he answered them with great vigour and clarity afterwards. This does feel like a significant loss to MSR, and a massive gain for wherever he ends up. Fingers crossed it is a teaching role, as I'd like to think we'd all benefit from turning a few more SPJs loose on the world. There is a recent MSR podcast episode with SPJ and Andy Gordon that is definitely worth a listen¹. It dips in to their histories, and also their work on Excel. ¹ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/podcast/advancing-excel-as-a-programming-language-with-andy-gordon-and-simon-peyton-jones/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/podcast/advancing-e... Edit: My other memory was the sheer level of professionalism in the support staff at MSR Cambridge, I simply can't recall anywhere I've been where the support staff have been as helpful and courteous as they were there.