10 ms·

Official KISSmetrics Response to Data Collection Practices

58 points by joshuacc 15y ago

rhizome 15y ago
They don't deny recreating cookies.
- dangrossman 15y ago
  Is that illegal now?
  - nostromo 15y ago
    No, but unethical for most applications, don't you think?
  - rhizome 15y ago
    Who cares? It's still lame and violates the Law of Demeter.
richcollins 15y ago
These articles are based entirely on a paper by Ashkan Soltani, who works closely with the lawyers who filed these cases, and who published his paper on the same day that the first lawsuit was filed.
- plinio_silva 15y ago
  So what? Does that automatically make everything he exposed false?
  - ericd 15y ago
    It makes his objectivity suspect.
    - rsingel 15y ago
      Both the lawyers and Soltani deny any working relationship, and it's not clear what proof KISSmetrics has beyond timing. But correlation is not always causation, and KISSmetrics is putting themselves at risk of a libel suit if they don't have any proof.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      How does Hiten's working for KM affect his objectivity?
      - ericd 15y ago
        He's not posing as an objective third party.
        rhizome 15y ago
        That's a strange way to establish someone's credibility!
bbatsell 15y ago
Their explanation of the universal cookie ID issue is rather silly. If you're a client of Kissmetrics, your visitors have a cookie scoped to your domain with the visitor's universal Kissmetrics ID. All of the database segregation in the world won't prevent any two or more Kissmetrics clients from collating visitor data on that universal ID, sent in every header on every pageview. Whether any clients are actually doing that, I have no clue. But claiming that permuting that universal ID into client-specific ones rendered when the clients view data actually protects visitors from said collation is just wrong. See Wired's screenshot here: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/epicenter/2011/07/Screen-Shot-2011-07-29-at-11.52.29-AM.png http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/epicenter/2011/07/Screen-S...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rubeng 15y ago
  I don't see what's silly about the explanation considering it's about efficiency and performance. As a KISSmetrics customer I can tell you the focus is on funnels and key data; not on an internal cookie ID so that we can collude with other companies.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    So you'd decline to collude with another company who approached you? What if they offered to pay?
    - rubeng 15y ago
      Of course not. Customer data isn't something I would ever share. Companies that choose to do so will do it regardless of whether they're directly paid for it. It's not a tech problem and it's not something they need a 3rd party vendor for.
- moe 15y ago
  Why would kissmetrics want to provide a way for their customers to link users by the means of that cookie id? To me this seems like an oversight rather than malicious intent.
jforman 15y ago
If the report "significantly distorts our technology and business practices," why are they making such significant changes to their technology and business practices as a result?
- jedberg 15y ago
  To assuage folks who don't understand technology and will assume they are guilty until they "make big changes".
  - jforman 15y ago
    I understand technology, and I'm pretty skeezed out by their use of Etags... Also, if they truly think they're innocent, why wouldn't they just educate their userbase? Seems odd to make such drastic architectural changes just because of a perceptual problem.
    - dangrossman 15y ago
      Their userbase is not who's suing them.
    - danielharan 15y ago
      > why wouldn't they just educate their userbase? < If you were competing against better funded companies - one of which may be behind these lawsuits (hey, this is business) - how much time would you spend educating? Wouldn't you rather just be selling and making money?
      - gyardley 15y ago
        No need for conspiracy theories - other companies have nothing to do with it. One law firm in particular is behind this lawsuit. This type of thing is their bread and butter.
        ericd 15y ago
jedberg 15y ago
I know Hiten personally, and I know that Kissmetrics operates in a most ethical fashion. I would trust them over most any analytics company any day. It's a shame that this meritless lawsuit even exists.
- Flam 15y ago
  Heck, if jedberg trusts them then I'm convinced. (no sarcasm)
- AndyNemmity 15y ago
  I just started using Kissmetrics, and it's odd that this was the most reassuring thing I've read from this.
- mtogo 15y ago
  Trying to prevent the deletion of cookies used to uniquely identify and track their customers' users is ethical?
  - qeorge 15y ago
    Yeah as far as I'm concerned, the cross-site tracking thing is a straw man. They used evercookie-ish methods to track people who don't want to be tracked. That's unethical, full stop.
- cHalgan 15y ago
  Can you please reconcile something to me: Kissmetrics operates in a most ethical fashion but they prevent deletion of cookies in order to track my browsing? Do they think I'm stupid? Or let me ask the other way: Is it ethical to prevent deletion of cookies in order to track my browsing and intentionally hide the fact that they are doing that?
- earl 15y ago
  What Kiss does is explicitly violating user intent -- ethical people assume that when cookies go away, the user is making a decision. From the paper summary : "The cache cookie method used ETags, and is capable of unique tracking even where all cookies are blocked by the user and “Private Browsing Mode” is enabled." Resuscitating cookies the user has cleared is simply wrong. And you have an expansive definition of "ethical".
jeremymims 15y ago
Hiten is a standup guy, a friend to startups everywhere, and a class act all around. I look forward to him kicking their asses in court.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
slowpoke 15y ago
Mr. Soltani also claims that it is somehow improper to use any technology other than browser cookies to track website activity. In fact, countless online companies, including other major analytics providers, use a variety of different technologies to provide these services, including the persistent technologies Mr. Soltani targets in his paper. That's not a justification for doing it too. It's merely a lame excuse for unethical behavior. Also, I don't care if the guys at KISSmetrics are nice, kitten-loving jolly good fellows - that has absolutely zero relevance to the case at hand.

58 points by joshuacc 15y ago

rhizome 15y ago

They don't deny recreating cookies.

dangrossman 15y ago
Is that illegal now?
- nostromo 15y ago
  No, but unethical for most applications, don't you think?
- rhizome 15y ago
  Who cares? It's still lame and violates the Law of Demeter.

richcollins 15y ago

These articles are based entirely on a paper by Ashkan Soltani, who works closely with the lawyers who filed these cases, and who published his paper on the same day that the first lawsuit was filed.

plinio_silva 15y ago
So what? Does that automatically make everything he exposed false?
- ericd 15y ago
  It makes his objectivity suspect.
  - rsingel 15y ago
    Both the lawyers and Soltani deny any working relationship, and it's not clear what proof KISSmetrics has beyond timing. But correlation is not always causation, and KISSmetrics is putting themselves at risk of a libel suit if they don't have any proof.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    How does Hiten's working for KM affect his objectivity?
    - ericd 15y ago
      He's not posing as an objective third party.
      - rhizome 15y ago
        That's a strange way to establish someone's credibility!

bbatsell 15y ago

Their explanation of the universal cookie ID issue is rather silly. If you're a client of Kissmetrics, your visitors have a cookie scoped to your domain with the visitor's universal Kissmetrics ID. All of the database segregation in the world won't prevent any two or more Kissmetrics clients from collating visitor data on that universal ID, sent in every header on every pageview. Whether any clients are actually doing that, I have no clue. But claiming that permuting that universal ID into client-specific ones rendered when the clients view data actually protects visitors from said collation is just wrong. See Wired's screenshot here: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/epicenter/2011/07/Screen-Shot-2011-07-29-at-11.52.29-AM.png http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/epicenter/2011/07/Screen-S...

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rubeng 15y ago
I don't see what's silly about the explanation considering it's about efficiency and performance. As a KISSmetrics customer I can tell you the focus is on funnels and key data; not on an internal cookie ID so that we can collude with other companies.
- rhizome 15y ago
  So you'd decline to collude with another company who approached you? What if they offered to pay?
  - rubeng 15y ago
    Of course not. Customer data isn't something I would ever share. Companies that choose to do so will do it regardless of whether they're directly paid for it. It's not a tech problem and it's not something they need a 3rd party vendor for.
moe 15y ago
Why would kissmetrics want to provide a way for their customers to link users by the means of that cookie id? To me this seems like an oversight rather than malicious intent.

jforman 15y ago

If the report "significantly distorts our technology and business practices," why are they making such significant changes to their technology and business practices as a result?

jedberg 15y ago
To assuage folks who don't understand technology and will assume they are guilty until they "make big changes".
- jforman 15y ago
  I understand technology, and I'm pretty skeezed out by their use of Etags... Also, if they truly think they're innocent, why wouldn't they just educate their userbase? Seems odd to make such drastic architectural changes just because of a perceptual problem.
  - dangrossman 15y ago
    Their userbase is not who's suing them.
  - danielharan 15y ago
    > why wouldn't they just educate their userbase? < If you were competing against better funded companies - one of which may be behind these lawsuits (hey, this is business) - how much time would you spend educating? Wouldn't you rather just be selling and making money?
    - gyardley 15y ago
      No need for conspiracy theories - other companies have nothing to do with it. One law firm in particular is behind this lawsuit. This type of thing is their bread and butter.
      - ericd 15y ago

jedberg 15y ago

I know Hiten personally, and I know that Kissmetrics operates in a most ethical fashion. I would trust them over most any analytics company any day. It's a shame that this meritless lawsuit even exists.

Flam 15y ago
Heck, if jedberg trusts them then I'm convinced. (no sarcasm)
AndyNemmity 15y ago
I just started using Kissmetrics, and it's odd that this was the most reassuring thing I've read from this.
mtogo 15y ago
Trying to prevent the deletion of cookies used to uniquely identify and track their customers' users is ethical?
- qeorge 15y ago
  Yeah as far as I'm concerned, the cross-site tracking thing is a straw man. They used evercookie-ish methods to track people who don't want to be tracked. That's unethical, full stop.
cHalgan 15y ago
Can you please reconcile something to me: Kissmetrics operates in a most ethical fashion but they prevent deletion of cookies in order to track my browsing? Do they think I'm stupid? Or let me ask the other way: Is it ethical to prevent deletion of cookies in order to track my browsing and intentionally hide the fact that they are doing that?
earl 15y ago
What Kiss does is explicitly violating user intent -- ethical people assume that when cookies go away, the user is making a decision. From the paper summary : "The cache cookie method used ETags, and is capable of unique tracking even where all cookies are blocked by the user and “Private Browsing Mode” is enabled." Resuscitating cookies the user has cleared is simply wrong. And you have an expansive definition of "ethical".

jeremymims 15y ago

Hiten is a standup guy, a friend to startups everywhere, and a class act all around. I look forward to him kicking their asses in court.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

slowpoke 15y ago

Mr. Soltani also claims that it is somehow improper to use any technology other than browser cookies to track website activity. In fact, countless online companies, including other major analytics providers, use a variety of different technologies to provide these services, including the persistent technologies Mr. Soltani targets in his paper. That's not a justification for doing it too. It's merely a lame excuse for unethical behavior. Also, I don't care if the guys at KISSmetrics are nice, kitten-loving jolly good fellows - that has absolutely zero relevance to the case at hand.