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That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One

That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a particularly vulnerable person is better off surrounded by vaccinated people even if they themselves are unvaccinated than if they are vaccinated but surrounded by unvaccinated people. This is a good and long overdue policy that should be widely replicated wherever vaccine supply permits.

angelzen 5y ago
It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria. As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  No, the unvaccinated population, where the virus keeps being replicated, breeds variants of all kinds; the vaccinated population applies selection pressure that favors vaccine resistance. If the entire population is vaccinated variants would not emerge at all because the virus would not spread from person to person (and would eventually disappear from the population).
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed. Vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission (1). All vaccines appear to do is to (hopefully) dull the severity of the infection once you've got it. Plus now we have animal reservoirs, and no way to vaccinate those. Edit: (1) Obviously we should talk about the degree of infection and transmission reduced by vaccines, and not in black/white terms. I haven't seen conclusive data, just the Israel Delta charts that are not particularly encouraging.
    - standardUser 5y ago
      Please stop spreading disinformation. Vaccines have been shown in many, many studies to reduce the spread of COVID-19.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - angelzen 5y ago
        [Fair enough, reformulated for better nuance.] Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed. * Covid vaccines only partially prevent infection or transmission. To the best of my understanding even 100% vaccination cannot prevent outbreaks. * We live in an 8bn people world + God know how many animal reservoirs. It is logistically impossible to vaccinate every living being susceptible of covid infection. We've got to live with endemic covid. * Fortunately the toll on children and teens is very small, and the vaccines do work best in preventing severe cases across the entire population, which makes living with endemic covid a whole lot more palatable. At some point we have to face the unavoidable. There will be variants, there will be outbreaks, hopefully the impact will be bearable. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-wi... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016465/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_36.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - sul_tasto 5y ago
    My understanding is that the delta variant originated in India. I’m not convinced that achieving a 100% vaccination rate in the US would accomplish anything.
gregwebs 5y ago
Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant. However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Delta variant this is much less clear (if you have any links to studies on this topic I am very interested to see them). Now we are risking the opposite situation. Most people that I encounter say "I am fully vaccinated" (so I don't need to wear a mask, take precaustions, etc). But the studies on these COVID vaccines have always shown that with great enough exposure the vaccinated will get infected and transmit that infection to others.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  Citation needed? A quick search turns up study after study from one country after another finding that COVID vaccines both reduce the rate of infection and reduce the rate of transmission even with the delta variant. You are right that people are overstating what the vaccine does, and that is where politicians actually have a chance to do something useful. Unfortunately there is a major political party that is doing the opposite, spreading false information, and shouting about "freedom" while working to stop local leaders from taking action...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jokteur 5y ago
    Here is an article last updated august 13 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z "But studies on Alpha and other variants cannot be easily generalized to Delta, says Steven Riley, an infectious-diseases researcher at Imperial College London. [...] So far, there are no published data on how vaccines affect infections and infectiousness with Delta, but a UK study5 published on 21 July shows that the Pfizer–BioNTech and Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccines both protect slightly less well against symptomatic disease caused by Delta than against that caused by Alpha. This could also mean a drop in how well they protect against transmission of Delta, but there is still a lot of uncertainty, says Dean. [...] Even if vaccines are just as effective at preventing infections with Delta as with earlier variants, if Delta is more infectious, transmission in households could still increase, says Dean." I think the danger is that often the vaccine is presented as THE solution, i.e. when you get it you don't have to worry about anything. I know far more people who are vaccinated and just stopped being careful (social distancing, masks, ...) than people who haven't vaccinated that aren't careful.
whiddershins 5y ago
But looking at studies out of Israel and the UK/EU we are seeing 9 to 27 times the protection from acquired immunity. Therefore this protective layer you describe would be most quickly and effectively formed by letting people at low risk all contract the disease.

angelzen 5y ago

It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria. As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.

betterunix2 5y ago
No, the unvaccinated population, where the virus keeps being replicated, breeds variants of all kinds; the vaccinated population applies selection pressure that favors vaccine resistance. If the entire population is vaccinated variants would not emerge at all because the virus would not spread from person to person (and would eventually disappear from the population).
- angelzen 5y ago
  Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed. Vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission (1). All vaccines appear to do is to (hopefully) dull the severity of the infection once you've got it. Plus now we have animal reservoirs, and no way to vaccinate those. Edit: (1) Obviously we should talk about the degree of infection and transmission reduced by vaccines, and not in black/white terms. I haven't seen conclusive data, just the Israel Delta charts that are not particularly encouraging.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    Please stop spreading disinformation. Vaccines have been shown in many, many studies to reduce the spread of COVID-19.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - angelzen 5y ago
      [Fair enough, reformulated for better nuance.] Sadly, the ZeroCovid ship has sailed. * Covid vaccines only partially prevent infection or transmission. To the best of my understanding even 100% vaccination cannot prevent outbreaks. * We live in an 8bn people world + God know how many animal reservoirs. It is logistically impossible to vaccinate every living being susceptible of covid infection. We've got to live with endemic covid. * Fortunately the toll on children and teens is very small, and the vaccines do work best in preventing severe cases across the entire population, which makes living with endemic covid a whole lot more palatable. At some point we have to face the unavoidable. There will be variants, there will be outbreaks, hopefully the impact will be bearable. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-... https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2 https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-wi... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016465/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_36.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- sul_tasto 5y ago
  My understanding is that the delta variant originated in India. I’m not convinced that achieving a 100% vaccination rate in the US would accomplish anything.

gregwebs 5y ago

Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant. However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Delta variant this is much less clear (if you have any links to studies on this topic I am very interested to see them). Now we are risking the opposite situation. Most people that I encounter say "I am fully vaccinated" (so I don't need to wear a mask, take precaustions, etc). But the studies on these COVID vaccines have always shown that with great enough exposure the vaccinated will get infected and transmit that infection to others.

betterunix2 5y ago
Citation needed? A quick search turns up study after study from one country after another finding that COVID vaccines both reduce the rate of infection and reduce the rate of transmission even with the delta variant. You are right that people are overstating what the vaccine does, and that is where politicians actually have a chance to do something useful. Unfortunately there is a major political party that is doing the opposite, spreading false information, and shouting about "freedom" while working to stop local leaders from taking action...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jokteur 5y ago
  Here is an article last updated august 13 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z "But studies on Alpha and other variants cannot be easily generalized to Delta, says Steven Riley, an infectious-diseases researcher at Imperial College London. [...] So far, there are no published data on how vaccines affect infections and infectiousness with Delta, but a UK study5 published on 21 July shows that the Pfizer–BioNTech and Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccines both protect slightly less well against symptomatic disease caused by Delta than against that caused by Alpha. This could also mean a drop in how well they protect against transmission of Delta, but there is still a lot of uncertainty, says Dean. [...] Even if vaccines are just as effective at preventing infections with Delta as with earlier variants, if Delta is more infectious, transmission in households could still increase, says Dean." I think the danger is that often the vaccine is presented as THE solution, i.e. when you get it you don't have to worry about anything. I know far more people who are vaccinated and just stopped being careful (social distancing, masks, ...) than people who haven't vaccinated that aren't careful.

whiddershins 5y ago

But looking at studies out of Israel and the UK/EU we are seeing 9 to 27 times the protection from acquired immunity. Therefore this protective layer you describe would be most quickly and effectively formed by letting people at low risk all contract the disease.