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People like to say skilled workers don't need unions but I never heard a convincing argument about why. Most of the fields I think of when I think of successfu

People like to say skilled workers don't need unions but I never heard a convincing argument about why. Most of the fields I think of when I think of successful unions in the US are ones I consider skilled -teachers -electricians -carpenters -airline pilots -actors

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
On your list are one group of government employees, three licensed industries and one of the last industries to still be dominated by a tightly knit cartel (the big Hollywood movie studios). Public sector unions are negotiating with a monopoly. In that sense they actually do something. The problem is that the monopoly is the government and then the union is a labor monopoly acting in opposition to the public rather than a capitalist private business. This is great for teachers but terrible for students and parents and taxpayers. The unions in licensed industries are unions because the law privileges unions, but in practice they're lobbying organizations. Your local electrician doesn't need a union to negotiate with you when you want a generator panel installed in your house. Their actual purpose is regulatory capture, and then you have the same problem as the teachers unions, e.g. the union lobbies to make it harder for people to become electricians to reduce competition to the detriment of prospective electricians and the general public who then has to pay more for the services of the people already in the club. And then Hollywood is a cartel in need of some antitrust enforcement, which is the one place where unions actually do something useful (but the better solution is still busting the trust).
- kelnos 5y ago
  > This is great for teachers but terrible for students and parents and taxpayers. Given how poorly public K-12 teachers are paid in the US, I don't think this is an accurate statement.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    The average public school teacher salary in the US is $63,645. The US median personal income is $35,977. On top of that, public school teachers get pensions and other benefits not given to the median US worker. The idea that they're poorly compensated is a myth. They make more money than most of the people funding their salaries. On top of that, teachers unions cause all the usual non-monetary harms, like preventing teachers who deserve to be fired from being fired, or driving off eager young teachers with stale seniority rules.
    - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
      Are we talking about medians or averages? People with or without bachelor's degrees and the accompanying debt?Comparing the median teacher salary to the average general wage doesn't really say much even if you had provided sources for your claim.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        The median teacher salary is $62,870, if you prefer that to the average, but they're both nearly double the median personal income before pension and benefits. Asking for sources is pedantic when anybody can type "US median teacher salary" into google themselves, but here it is on the BLS website: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobile/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...
        only_as_i_fall 5y ago
        But your numbers were wrong according to that same source. Median average pay for all workers is $42k compared to $61k for teachers. Saying that they make twice as much money is either a significant mathematical error or intentionally disingenuous. Moreover, you still didn't address the fact that teachers have a significant debt load https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/depth-educators-college-debt https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/depth... >Overall, educators borrowed an average of $55,800—and still owe an average $58,700 because of low salaries and hefty interest rates—but those amounts vary a lot, depending on age and race. >It’s worse for young educators. Because of rising tuition costs, two of out three educators under the age of 35 borrowed for college, compared to 27 percent of those 61 and up. Additionally, nearly half of young educators borrowed more than $65,000, compared to 13 percent of educators 61 and over. Nonetheless, many older educators are still struggling. In fact, more than a quarter of educators over the age of 61 still haven’t paid off their student debt. Of those, more than a third still owe at least $45,000.
- only_as_i_fall 5y ago
  Are you arguing that all of these unions don't help their members or that they have other negatives you don't like? Because that's kind of a different discussion imo

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

On your list are one group of government employees, three licensed industries and one of the last industries to still be dominated by a tightly knit cartel (the big Hollywood movie studios). Public sector unions are negotiating with a monopoly. In that sense they actually do something. The problem is that the monopoly is the government and then the union is a labor monopoly acting in opposition to the public rather than a capitalist private business. This is great for teachers but terrible for students and parents and taxpayers. The unions in licensed industries are unions because the law privileges unions, but in practice they're lobbying organizations. Your local electrician doesn't need a union to negotiate with you when you want a generator panel installed in your house. Their actual purpose is regulatory capture, and then you have the same problem as the teachers unions, e.g. the union lobbies to make it harder for people to become electricians to reduce competition to the detriment of prospective electricians and the general public who then has to pay more for the services of the people already in the club. And then Hollywood is a cartel in need of some antitrust enforcement, which is the one place where unions actually do something useful (but the better solution is still busting the trust).

kelnos 5y ago
> This is great for teachers but terrible for students and parents and taxpayers. Given how poorly public K-12 teachers are paid in the US, I don't think this is an accurate statement.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  The average public school teacher salary in the US is $63,645. The US median personal income is $35,977. On top of that, public school teachers get pensions and other benefits not given to the median US worker. The idea that they're poorly compensated is a myth. They make more money than most of the people funding their salaries. On top of that, teachers unions cause all the usual non-monetary harms, like preventing teachers who deserve to be fired from being fired, or driving off eager young teachers with stale seniority rules.
  - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
    Are we talking about medians or averages? People with or without bachelor's degrees and the accompanying debt?Comparing the median teacher salary to the average general wage doesn't really say much even if you had provided sources for your claim.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      The median teacher salary is $62,870, if you prefer that to the average, but they're both nearly double the median personal income before pension and benefits. Asking for sources is pedantic when anybody can type "US median teacher salary" into google themselves, but here it is on the BLS website: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobile/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/mobil...
      - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
        But your numbers were wrong according to that same source. Median average pay for all workers is $42k compared to $61k for teachers. Saying that they make twice as much money is either a significant mathematical error or intentionally disingenuous. Moreover, you still didn't address the fact that teachers have a significant debt load https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/depth-educators-college-debt https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/depth... >Overall, educators borrowed an average of $55,800—and still owe an average $58,700 because of low salaries and hefty interest rates—but those amounts vary a lot, depending on age and race. >It’s worse for young educators. Because of rising tuition costs, two of out three educators under the age of 35 borrowed for college, compared to 27 percent of those 61 and up. Additionally, nearly half of young educators borrowed more than $65,000, compared to 13 percent of educators 61 and over. Nonetheless, many older educators are still struggling. In fact, more than a quarter of educators over the age of 61 still haven’t paid off their student debt. Of those, more than a third still owe at least $45,000.
only_as_i_fall 5y ago
Are you arguing that all of these unions don't help their members or that they have other negatives you don't like? Because that's kind of a different discussion imo