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Congratulation: You just opened the Pandora box of locale vs language! My understanding would be that locale should dictate numerical formatting. But one could

Congratulation: You just opened the Pandora box of locale vs language! My understanding would be that locale should dictate numerical formatting. But one could argue the opposite and also be right.

dataflow 5y ago
Yeah my understanding is people would classify this as locale too, but it's always seemed weird to me. I guess my question is whether this is about formatting to begin with. Periods mean something different depending on the language, right? It seems less about displaying it differently and more about conveying correct information. But then again, mm/dd/yy and dd/mm/yy are often exposed as a formatting option...
pjscott 5y ago
I checked the documentation for the ICU Unicode library and Apple's Foundation library, and they both say that numerical formatting is a property of the locale rather than the language. I'd be surprised if other major platforms did otherwise.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
If you were discussing POSIX locale, the definitions are quite clear, and there's no ambiguity. But that's also because POSIX subdivides locale into many subsections. From "man setlocale": LC_ALL All of the locale LC_ADDRESS Formatting of addresses and geography-related items (*) LC_COLLATE String collation LC_CTYPE Character classification LC_IDENTIFICATION Metadata describing the locale (*) LC_MEASUREMENT Settings related to measurements (metric versus US customary) (*) LC_MESSAGES Localizable natural-language messages LC_MONETARY Formatting of monetary values LC_NAME Formatting of salutations for persons (*) LC_NUMERIC Formatting of nonmonetary numeric values LC_PAPER Settings related to the standard paper size (*) LC_TELEPHONE Formats to be used with telephone services (*) LC_TIME Formatting of date and time values
- deleted 5y ago
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conductr 5y ago
Not to disparage the conversation the technical bits are certainly interesting but, for almost every application, this is the point where things move towards diminishing returns. You could invest infinitely into getting every bit of design and copy for every language and locale permutation flawless and you’re company would be worse off because you should have spent that time elsewhere. In many cases, it’s simply not unrealistic to expect your customer to use google translate.
Vinnl 5y ago
If we're opening Pandora's boxes... I've got GNOME set up in English, but my region to be the Netherlands. It will helpfully display local dates, but that also results in the month names being in Dutch.
- account42 5y ago
  Maybe that's what the Gnome interface limits you to (no idea) but LC_TIME and the timezone are not inherently linked under Linux. If by "local dates" dates you mean the format rather than timezone then LC_TIME=en_DK will give you English text with RFC3339 YYYY-MM-DD formatting.
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    Unfortunately I don't really know what LC_TIME is :) But if I look through the calendar widget that drops down when I click the time in the top bar, is says e.g. that the previous month is called "augustus" and that today is "vrijdag". Looking into my "Region & Language" settings, my language is set to English (United Kingdom), and formats is set to Nederland (Nederlands), which is said to cover numbers, dates and currencies. Especially for currencies I'd prefer my local currency, but I'd prefer for numbers to use the UK system, and not quite sure what I'd like for dates as long as it's not the US system.

Congratulation: You just opened the Pandora box of locale vs language! My understanding would be that locale should dictate numerical formatting. But one could argue the opposite and also be right.

dataflow 5y ago

Yeah my understanding is people would classify this as locale too, but it's always seemed weird to me. I guess my question is whether this is about formatting to begin with. Periods mean something different depending on the language, right? It seems less about displaying it differently and more about conveying correct information. But then again, mm/dd/yy and dd/mm/yy are often exposed as a formatting option...

pjscott 5y ago

I checked the documentation for the ICU Unicode library and Apple's Foundation library, and they both say that numerical formatting is a property of the locale rather than the language. I'd be surprised if other major platforms did otherwise.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

If you were discussing POSIX locale, the definitions are quite clear, and there's no ambiguity. But that's also because POSIX subdivides locale into many subsections. From "man setlocale": LC_ALL All of the locale LC_ADDRESS Formatting of addresses and geography-related items (*) LC_COLLATE String collation LC_CTYPE Character classification LC_IDENTIFICATION Metadata describing the locale (*) LC_MEASUREMENT Settings related to measurements (metric versus US customary) (*) LC_MESSAGES Localizable natural-language messages LC_MONETARY Formatting of monetary values LC_NAME Formatting of salutations for persons (*) LC_NUMERIC Formatting of nonmonetary numeric values LC_PAPER Settings related to the standard paper size (*) LC_TELEPHONE Formats to be used with telephone services (*) LC_TIME Formatting of date and time values

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

conductr 5y ago

Not to disparage the conversation the technical bits are certainly interesting but, for almost every application, this is the point where things move towards diminishing returns. You could invest infinitely into getting every bit of design and copy for every language and locale permutation flawless and you’re company would be worse off because you should have spent that time elsewhere. In many cases, it’s simply not unrealistic to expect your customer to use google translate.

Vinnl 5y ago

If we're opening Pandora's boxes... I've got GNOME set up in English, but my region to be the Netherlands. It will helpfully display local dates, but that also results in the month names being in Dutch.

account42 5y ago
Maybe that's what the Gnome interface limits you to (no idea) but LC_TIME and the timezone are not inherently linked under Linux. If by "local dates" dates you mean the format rather than timezone then LC_TIME=en_DK will give you English text with RFC3339 YYYY-MM-DD formatting.
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Unfortunately I don't really know what LC_TIME is :) But if I look through the calendar widget that drops down when I click the time in the top bar, is says e.g. that the previous month is called "augustus" and that today is "vrijdag". Looking into my "Region & Language" settings, my language is set to English (United Kingdom), and formats is set to Nederland (Nederlands), which is said to cover numbers, dates and currencies. Especially for currencies I'd prefer my local currency, but I'd prefer for numbers to use the UK system, and not quite sure what I'd like for dates as long as it's not the US system.