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Matrix is an open source project where you can inspect, clone and alter the code; write your own clients, write your own servers, and choose to federate or not.

by dsr_ 5y ago

Matrix is an open source project where you can inspect, clone and alter the code; write your own clients, write your own servers, and choose to federate or not. Useful would be "these are deficiencies in the federation system which should be addressed by doing this, that, and the other". Useful would be "here's a guide to routing your client's connection via Tor or running a homeserver behind Tor". Useful would be "let's start a project to enable use of Matrix without these things we think are bad ideas". Useful would even include "here are well-thought out criticisms of Matrix with suggestions on alternatives that don't have those issues, but have these other tradeoffs". This post is anti-useful. It's just FUD.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
You will write the server and then Element will change protocol so no your server is no longer compatible. What would you do next?
- aine 5y ago
  Well, nothing. I mean, nothing will happen, because matrix uses strict versioning of protocol and your server "announces" supported protocol versions, so any client will use supported protocol version with your server. Btw, there are several server implementations of matrix sever, not related to the New Vector/Element.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    > nothing will happen, because matrix uses strict versioning of protocol Bingo! You've precisely stated the reason, why Matrix is a product and will always be a product, and never a protocol. In real world, third party servers will never be on the same version of protocol. A few years ago [1] people here explained to Matrix developers that "single monolithic versioned protocol" that is NOT the way to build federation, ant that it is silly to assume that everyone will magically update once the new version comes out, but they were preaching to deaf ears. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634
    - aine 5y ago
      Well, maybe, but it works as "single monolithic versioned protocol" with different server implementations, and it works OK-ish. I understand that's not perfect and such approach has it's own downsides, but for now it's OK. PS: I'm not matrix developer, so my opinion maybe wrong, but from user and sysadmin perspective I don't see/feel any problems with it
- dsr_ 5y ago
  OK, let's suppose that the Matrix main organization is irredeemably evil in your eyes. But not everybody is evil. So, you get together with lots of other people at a conference, and you announce a new code-of-conduct based organization to do mutual interconnection for homeservers that agree to a particular set of rules. The requirement for federation is that they agree, and that they will not federate with anyone who doesn't agree to the same set; the only penalty for non-compliance is not being allowed to federate with the members of the organization anymore. There you go. Remember to thank the Matrix people for all their hard work, which you have subverted from "evil" to "good".
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    I didn't understand what you were trying to say. My point is Matrix is not suitable for federation because it has characteristics that prevent creation, deployment and usage of multiple competing implementations.

by dsr_ 5y ago

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

You will write the server and then Element will change protocol so no your server is no longer compatible. What would you do next?

aine 5y ago
Well, nothing. I mean, nothing will happen, because matrix uses strict versioning of protocol and your server "announces" supported protocol versions, so any client will use supported protocol version with your server. Btw, there are several server implementations of matrix sever, not related to the New Vector/Element.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  > nothing will happen, because matrix uses strict versioning of protocol Bingo! You've precisely stated the reason, why Matrix is a product and will always be a product, and never a protocol. In real world, third party servers will never be on the same version of protocol. A few years ago [1] people here explained to Matrix developers that "single monolithic versioned protocol" that is NOT the way to build federation, ant that it is silly to assume that everyone will magically update once the new version comes out, but they were preaching to deaf ears. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19421634
  - aine 5y ago
    Well, maybe, but it works as "single monolithic versioned protocol" with different server implementations, and it works OK-ish. I understand that's not perfect and such approach has it's own downsides, but for now it's OK. PS: I'm not matrix developer, so my opinion maybe wrong, but from user and sysadmin perspective I don't see/feel any problems with it
dsr_ 5y ago
OK, let's suppose that the Matrix main organization is irredeemably evil in your eyes. But not everybody is evil. So, you get together with lots of other people at a conference, and you announce a new code-of-conduct based organization to do mutual interconnection for homeservers that agree to a particular set of rules. The requirement for federation is that they agree, and that they will not federate with anyone who doesn't agree to the same set; the only penalty for non-compliance is not being allowed to federate with the members of the organization anymore. There you go. Remember to thank the Matrix people for all their hard work, which you have subverted from "evil" to "good".
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  I didn't understand what you were trying to say. My point is Matrix is not suitable for federation because it has characteristics that prevent creation, deployment and usage of multiple competing implementations.