4 ms·

I don't understand the point of changing words like "many" to "mony" or "man" to "mon". I mean if you're anyway writing the entire thing in modern day English t

by rgvr 5y ago

I don't understand the point of changing words like "many" to "mony" or "man" to "mon". I mean if you're anyway writing the entire thing in modern day English then why do this. Is it just for the effect of it I.e., making it look sophisticated? or is it some kind of attempt at retaining the originality/authenticity?

retrac 5y ago
Some people take the Sapir-Whorf theory too seriously: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
- gpvos 5y ago
  In what sense is that connected to the above?
- rebuilder 5y ago
  Isn’t this a site for people who take some things too seriously?
nerdponx 5y ago
I figured those were OCR errors or something. How would this help maintain originality?
- duskwuff 5y ago
  No, this is intentional. Here's the original book on the publisher's own web site: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_spartan_women/1931/pb_LCL245.455.xml https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_s... There's a footnote on that part "Cf. the note on Moralia, 190 B, supra", but I'm not sure what that's referencing.
  - thwave 5y ago
    This footnote refers to Sayings of Kings and Commanders[0], another text of Plutarch, but is not related to the translation. [0] https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_kings_commanders/1931/pb_LCL245.125.xml https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_k...
    - pvg 5y ago
      That's 190 C. It might be this bit about Doric somethingorother https://i.imgur.com/oV88mWG.png https://i.imgur.com/oV88mWG.png
pvg 5y ago
It's supposed to be conveying some kind of regional accent/dialect, I think. A bit from the same translation: A Spartan, being asked if the road into Sparta were safe, said, That depends on what kind of a mon ye are; for the lions gang about where they wull, but the hares we hunt over that land." Edit: poking around the translation some, it looks like it's supposed to represent the Doric Greek dialect. https://i.imgur.com/Di0nGS9.png https://i.imgur.com/Di0nGS9.png
- thwave 5y ago
  Correct. The translated sentence ("my son was a gude and honourable mon, but Sparta has mony a mon better than him.") does ends with two distinctly Doric words: τήνω (there, i.e. in Sparta) κάρρονας (stronger/better), instead of the Attic ἐκεῖ κρείττονας.
  - jnsie 5y ago
    > "my son was a gude and honourable mon, but Sparta has mony a mon better than him." On a sidenote, this sounds northern irish to me. Think Daniel Day-Louis in The Boxer
  - pvg 5y ago
    Thanks! Fascinating that the translator chose to represent the dialectal bits explicitly with a contemporary dialect, even though the style of the translation is not all contemporary. And the contemporariness makes the intent hard to understand without reading a bunch of footnotes (or ancient Greek) only a few decades later.
stult 5y ago
I think I vaguely recall the explanation from a classics course many, many, many years ago, but I can't find a source without investing a ton more effort, so take this with a grain of salt: IIRC, Plutarch wrote the sayings in intentionally archaic (for his time) Greek. He lived hundreds of years after Sparta had disappeared as a power in the ancient world, so he could have intended it to demonstrate the great antiquity of the quotations, or he could have done so to paint the Spartans as rough-around-the-edges rustics. The translation attempts to mimic this effect by translating the archaic-sounding Greek as archaic-sounding English.
- Applejinx 5y ago
  To me it sounded like suddenly they were Rastafarians. Or perhaps Rastas out of the William Gibson novel, Neuromancer? I've read that more recently than I've read the history of Bob Marley and the Wailers, because I still have Neuromancer but sold Catch A Fire (I should go buy another copy, it was a very good book). I doubt any of this was the intent.
  - pvg 5y ago
    Imagine the movie 300 except voiced in the style of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g
luxpir 5y ago
From a British perspective, this is pretty clearly a faux-Scots interpretation for that earthy feel the author must have thought was warranted. Appropriated with all the confidence only the English can muster. I may be way off base, but those are first impressions. > aither clear yersel' of this or stop yer living. A few stereotypical Scots markers there. And "mony" and "mon" are Northern features from Derby to Scotland in various pockets. Dying out altogether now, of course, becoming the homogenised transatlantic factory line English we're all so excited to speak nowadays. Can I get a tea with milk to go? Cheers!
anigbrowl 5y ago
Per the heading, it is a scan of an old book which itself seems to be a collection of older texts. The weird spellings are consistent with English representations of Scottish speech patterns, and might have been intended to communicate to the original audience that the Spartans' general gruffness and aggression were comparable to that of Scots.

by rgvr 5y ago

retrac 5y ago

Some people take the Sapir-Whorf theory too seriously: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

gpvos 5y ago
In what sense is that connected to the above?
rebuilder 5y ago
Isn’t this a site for people who take some things too seriously?

nerdponx 5y ago

I figured those were OCR errors or something. How would this help maintain originality?

duskwuff 5y ago
No, this is intentional. Here's the original book on the publisher's own web site: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_spartan_women/1931/pb_LCL245.455.xml https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_s... There's a footnote on that part "Cf. the note on Moralia, 190 B, supra", but I'm not sure what that's referencing.
- thwave 5y ago
  This footnote refers to Sayings of Kings and Commanders[0], another text of Plutarch, but is not related to the translation. [0] https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_kings_commanders/1931/pb_LCL245.125.xml https://www.loebclassics.com/view/plutarch-moralia_sayings_k...
  - pvg 5y ago
    That's 190 C. It might be this bit about Doric somethingorother https://i.imgur.com/oV88mWG.png https://i.imgur.com/oV88mWG.png

pvg 5y ago

It's supposed to be conveying some kind of regional accent/dialect, I think. A bit from the same translation: A Spartan, being asked if the road into Sparta were safe, said, That depends on what kind of a mon ye are; for the lions gang about where they wull, but the hares we hunt over that land." Edit: poking around the translation some, it looks like it's supposed to represent the Doric Greek dialect. https://i.imgur.com/Di0nGS9.png https://i.imgur.com/Di0nGS9.png

thwave 5y ago
Correct. The translated sentence ("my son was a gude and honourable mon, but Sparta has mony a mon better than him.") does ends with two distinctly Doric words: τήνω (there, i.e. in Sparta) κάρρονας (stronger/better), instead of the Attic ἐκεῖ κρείττονας.
- jnsie 5y ago
  > "my son was a gude and honourable mon, but Sparta has mony a mon better than him." On a sidenote, this sounds northern irish to me. Think Daniel Day-Louis in The Boxer
- pvg 5y ago
  Thanks! Fascinating that the translator chose to represent the dialectal bits explicitly with a contemporary dialect, even though the style of the translation is not all contemporary. And the contemporariness makes the intent hard to understand without reading a bunch of footnotes (or ancient Greek) only a few decades later.

stult 5y ago

I think I vaguely recall the explanation from a classics course many, many, many years ago, but I can't find a source without investing a ton more effort, so take this with a grain of salt: IIRC, Plutarch wrote the sayings in intentionally archaic (for his time) Greek. He lived hundreds of years after Sparta had disappeared as a power in the ancient world, so he could have intended it to demonstrate the great antiquity of the quotations, or he could have done so to paint the Spartans as rough-around-the-edges rustics. The translation attempts to mimic this effect by translating the archaic-sounding Greek as archaic-sounding English.

Applejinx 5y ago
To me it sounded like suddenly they were Rastafarians. Or perhaps Rastas out of the William Gibson novel, Neuromancer? I've read that more recently than I've read the history of Bob Marley and the Wailers, because I still have Neuromancer but sold Catch A Fire (I should go buy another copy, it was a very good book). I doubt any of this was the intent.
- pvg 5y ago
  Imagine the movie 300 except voiced in the style of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g

luxpir 5y ago

From a British perspective, this is pretty clearly a faux-Scots interpretation for that earthy feel the author must have thought was warranted. Appropriated with all the confidence only the English can muster. I may be way off base, but those are first impressions. > aither clear yersel' of this or stop yer living. A few stereotypical Scots markers there. And "mony" and "mon" are Northern features from Derby to Scotland in various pockets. Dying out altogether now, of course, becoming the homogenised transatlantic factory line English we're all so excited to speak nowadays. Can I get a tea with milk to go? Cheers!

anigbrowl 5y ago

Per the heading, it is a scan of an old book which itself seems to be a collection of older texts. The weird spellings are consistent with English representations of Scottish speech patterns, and might have been intended to communicate to the original audience that the Spartans' general gruffness and aggression were comparable to that of Scots.