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> Having your OWN servers and data is very attractive. This is true for businesses that can justify the cost of self hosting for a variety of business reasons

> Having your OWN servers and data is very attractive. This is true for businesses that can justify the cost of self hosting for a variety of business reasons. This isn't true for most end-users, who just want reliable services. Hence, Wordpress.com vs. self-hosted Wordpress. I don't want to be personally responsible for my data; I want a professional organization to make sure it is safe.

sodimel 5y ago
I think small businesses don't want to spend X days per year to manage a self hosted solution, it's cheaper to just use a gafam service. (and I think that's a problem, OSS softwares today are ~reliable enough for end users, but not really for companies)
theandrewbailey 5y ago
If you aren't personally responsible for your data, does it really exist? Is it really yours? What if your professional organization says "we've installed some big data analytics", or "whoops we lost all your data"?
- sethhochberg 5y ago
  When I give a dress shirt to a professional dry cleaner, I'm not personally responsible for it while they're cleaning it. Its still my shirt. I'd consider using a different dry cleaner if they started keeping notes on what they thought I did to make my shirt dirty. If they lost the shirt, I'm angry and may even get some compensation, but the shirt is still gone and someone else probably has it. I completely understand that the scale and scope of abuse in tech can be much higher than with other services due to automation, but I don't see how its reasonable to question whether my stuff is still my stuff because I've entrusted it to a third party.
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    The laws around data are completely different, at least in the USA. In general, if someone else has "your" data, it's actually their data.
    - boplicity 5y ago
      Source?
- boplicity 5y ago
  > If you aren't personally responsible for your data, does it really exist? Yes. > Is it really yours? Yes, though obviously it depends on the service, and my agreement with them. Most of my photos, for example, are backed up in OneDrive, which works quite well for my purposes. > What if your professional organization says "we've installed some big data analytics", or "whoops we lost all your data"? Good question! My photos, for example, exist on my local computer, Microsoft OneDrive, and on Google Photos. The odds of losing them are, frankly, as non-existent as possible. Multiple storage locations, IMO, are a good way to mitigate the relatively low risk of losing cloud data. Also, almost no effort on my part is required.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
EGreg 5y ago
That is why we have IPFS and soon, SAFE Network! Look them up.
boplicity 5y ago
I think I'm getting downvotes because people don't want this to be true. However, I'd like to hear an argument that makes my statements above not true. For example, my parents are never going to self host their own photos unless they're confident that it is safe and reliable, and takes almost no effort on their part. They don't want that responsibility, and frankly, there's no need. OSS can be built around businesses that take responsibility and host for others. Part of why so many of these platforms fail to gain mainstream support, is that they're not built to support a solid business case, and instead somehow expect everyday people to learn far more than is realistic, just to replace a service that is free and easy. That doesn't have to be true. Wordpress, as mentioned above, is a very good example, as it provides both options. (Self hosting, vs. paying someone else to take that responsibility.)
- sodimel 5y ago
  We have an initiative in France where local non-profit orgs setup and maintain such OSS services (for free or for a small fee). It's called "chatons"[0] (kittens), and it's great :) [0]: https://www.chatons.org/ https://www.chatons.org/
  - geofft 5y ago
    That's not self-hosting. That's getting services from a third-party organization that happens to be a non-profit. The only difference between that and GitHub is that GitHub is a for-profit company, which setup and maintain services for you (for free or a small fee). So if the actual complaint is "stop supporting for-profit companies," sure (but then we have to ask why - there are reasons to expect that a for-profit company is likely to be more stable long-term, more likely to be secure, etc.). If the complaint is "GitHub / Microsoft in particular is bad, and chatons in particular is good," sure (but then, what about for-profit competitors like GitLab?). But that's unrelated to the original complaint. As you say, chatons is maintaining OSS services for you to interact with.
- EGreg 5y ago
  I am pretty sure you get downvotes for the reason you stated. On HN it is a signal that what people disagree with what you’re saying — though I strongly feel it should’t be, even pg said it’s a valid reason. Anyway, I am for actually discussing substance so here it is: With Facebook, you only have one possible landlord - a monopoly. With Wordpress, you have a choice of many landlords who compete on price, location, and so forth, knowing that you can take your business elsewhere. In short it is like going from digital Feudalism to Capitalism. See this for much more info: https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/ https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/ That is why I started Qbix 10 years ago. But there is something even better than capitalism and privately owned hosting companies: autonomous, self-balancing networks where dumb pipes carry encrypted messages. Blockchains are just the beginning. That’s why I started Intercoin.org but some projects like MaidSAFE and Matrix.org are ahead of us in many respects (for storage).

sodimel 5y ago

I think small businesses don't want to spend X days per year to manage a self hosted solution, it's cheaper to just use a gafam service. (and I think that's a problem, OSS softwares today are ~reliable enough for end users, but not really for companies)

theandrewbailey 5y ago

If you aren't personally responsible for your data, does it really exist? Is it really yours? What if your professional organization says "we've installed some big data analytics", or "whoops we lost all your data"?

sethhochberg 5y ago
When I give a dress shirt to a professional dry cleaner, I'm not personally responsible for it while they're cleaning it. Its still my shirt. I'd consider using a different dry cleaner if they started keeping notes on what they thought I did to make my shirt dirty. If they lost the shirt, I'm angry and may even get some compensation, but the shirt is still gone and someone else probably has it. I completely understand that the scale and scope of abuse in tech can be much higher than with other services due to automation, but I don't see how its reasonable to question whether my stuff is still my stuff because I've entrusted it to a third party.
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  The laws around data are completely different, at least in the USA. In general, if someone else has "your" data, it's actually their data.
  - boplicity 5y ago
    Source?
boplicity 5y ago
> If you aren't personally responsible for your data, does it really exist? Yes. > Is it really yours? Yes, though obviously it depends on the service, and my agreement with them. Most of my photos, for example, are backed up in OneDrive, which works quite well for my purposes. > What if your professional organization says "we've installed some big data analytics", or "whoops we lost all your data"? Good question! My photos, for example, exist on my local computer, Microsoft OneDrive, and on Google Photos. The odds of losing them are, frankly, as non-existent as possible. Multiple storage locations, IMO, are a good way to mitigate the relatively low risk of losing cloud data. Also, almost no effort on my part is required.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

EGreg 5y ago

That is why we have IPFS and soon, SAFE Network! Look them up.

boplicity 5y ago

I think I'm getting downvotes because people don't want this to be true. However, I'd like to hear an argument that makes my statements above not true. For example, my parents are never going to self host their own photos unless they're confident that it is safe and reliable, and takes almost no effort on their part. They don't want that responsibility, and frankly, there's no need. OSS can be built around businesses that take responsibility and host for others. Part of why so many of these platforms fail to gain mainstream support, is that they're not built to support a solid business case, and instead somehow expect everyday people to learn far more than is realistic, just to replace a service that is free and easy. That doesn't have to be true. Wordpress, as mentioned above, is a very good example, as it provides both options. (Self hosting, vs. paying someone else to take that responsibility.)

sodimel 5y ago
We have an initiative in France where local non-profit orgs setup and maintain such OSS services (for free or for a small fee). It's called "chatons"[0] (kittens), and it's great :) [0]: https://www.chatons.org/ https://www.chatons.org/
- geofft 5y ago
  That's not self-hosting. That's getting services from a third-party organization that happens to be a non-profit. The only difference between that and GitHub is that GitHub is a for-profit company, which setup and maintain services for you (for free or a small fee). So if the actual complaint is "stop supporting for-profit companies," sure (but then we have to ask why - there are reasons to expect that a for-profit company is likely to be more stable long-term, more likely to be secure, etc.). If the complaint is "GitHub / Microsoft in particular is bad, and chatons in particular is good," sure (but then, what about for-profit competitors like GitLab?). But that's unrelated to the original complaint. As you say, chatons is maintaining OSS services for you to interact with.
EGreg 5y ago
I am pretty sure you get downvotes for the reason you stated. On HN it is a signal that what people disagree with what you’re saying — though I strongly feel it should’t be, even pg said it’s a valid reason. Anyway, I am for actually discussing substance so here it is: With Facebook, you only have one possible landlord - a monopoly. With Wordpress, you have a choice of many landlords who compete on price, location, and so forth, knowing that you can take your business elsewhere. In short it is like going from digital Feudalism to Capitalism. See this for much more info: https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/ https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/ That is why I started Qbix 10 years ago. But there is something even better than capitalism and privately owned hosting companies: autonomous, self-balancing networks where dumb pipes carry encrypted messages. Blockchains are just the beginning. That’s why I started Intercoin.org but some projects like MaidSAFE and Matrix.org are ahead of us in many respects (for storage).