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I suppose I will remain ignorant of this until I actually try it but I don't dare: How's transfer "free" if average transaction fee is a few bucks? https://yc

I suppose I will remain ignorant of this until I actually try it but I don't dare: How's transfer "free" if average transaction fee is a few bucks? https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f...

lugorrr 5y ago
because they are using a layer 2 solution [1] [1] https://lightning.engineering/ https://lightning.engineering/
- spyder 5y ago
  But even with lightning it's just cheaper but not free or is it?
  - kevinak 5y ago
    For all practical use-cases it is. Last time I used LN (earlier today) it cost me 0.05% to send some money.
  - lawn 5y ago
    Considering that you'll need at least one Bitcoin transaction to use LN, then yes it's still expensive. (You don't have to if you use more centralized solutions, which is what most use.)
sudhirj 5y ago
Think you’re looking for Bitcoin Lightning? From what I understand it’s another chain that collects and confirms transactions quickly and cheaply, then puts them on the main blockchain in batches.
- Geee 5y ago
  No, it uses Bitcoin transactions that are updated interactively between participants. Transactions are signed with your private keys and can always be settled on blockchain.
  - carlosdp 5y ago
    idk why this is downvoted, this is the correct answer. What the OP mentioned is called Rollups, which is the popular solution on Ethereum and other smart contract chains, not Bitcoin.
    - sudhirj 5y ago
      So the Lightning system uses the Bitcoin wallet to mutually sign transactions? And what’s the protection against me spending the Bitcoin on the main blockchain before the Lightning transaction is registered? I can understand that can’t double spend BTC on the Lightning network, but how does it stop from double spending between chains?
      - Geee 5y ago
        See this for a more complete explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28470154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28470154
      - poontang1 5y ago
        There are not two chains, there is only bitcoin. Lightning channels are addresses owned by multiple parties where you pass around signed transactions that could be settled on chain at any time, but you choose not to because there is no need to. When you want to settle everything, instead of submitting all the built up transactions, you can just make a single tx instead settling the final balance. It would be like if you sent me a $5 check every day of the month, and at the end of the month I agreed to tear them all up if you just wrote me a check for $150 instead. The analogy is still poor cause a check can bounce, but theres no good way to cheat in this system.
        NikolaNovak 5y ago
        This is all educational and I appreciate it (genuinely!) but is there any indication such solutions are actually used in this government sponsored usages?

lugorrr 5y ago

because they are using a layer 2 solution [1] [1] https://lightning.engineering/ https://lightning.engineering/

spyder 5y ago
But even with lightning it's just cheaper but not free or is it?
- kevinak 5y ago
  For all practical use-cases it is. Last time I used LN (earlier today) it cost me 0.05% to send some money.
- lawn 5y ago
  Considering that you'll need at least one Bitcoin transaction to use LN, then yes it's still expensive. (You don't have to if you use more centralized solutions, which is what most use.)

sudhirj 5y ago

Think you’re looking for Bitcoin Lightning? From what I understand it’s another chain that collects and confirms transactions quickly and cheaply, then puts them on the main blockchain in batches.

Geee 5y ago
No, it uses Bitcoin transactions that are updated interactively between participants. Transactions are signed with your private keys and can always be settled on blockchain.
- carlosdp 5y ago
  idk why this is downvoted, this is the correct answer. What the OP mentioned is called Rollups, which is the popular solution on Ethereum and other smart contract chains, not Bitcoin.
  - sudhirj 5y ago
    So the Lightning system uses the Bitcoin wallet to mutually sign transactions? And what’s the protection against me spending the Bitcoin on the main blockchain before the Lightning transaction is registered? I can understand that can’t double spend BTC on the Lightning network, but how does it stop from double spending between chains?
    - Geee 5y ago
      See this for a more complete explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28470154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28470154
    - poontang1 5y ago
      There are not two chains, there is only bitcoin. Lightning channels are addresses owned by multiple parties where you pass around signed transactions that could be settled on chain at any time, but you choose not to because there is no need to. When you want to settle everything, instead of submitting all the built up transactions, you can just make a single tx instead settling the final balance. It would be like if you sent me a $5 check every day of the month, and at the end of the month I agreed to tear them all up if you just wrote me a check for $150 instead. The analogy is still poor cause a check can bounce, but theres no good way to cheat in this system.
      - NikolaNovak 5y ago
        This is all educational and I appreciate it (genuinely!) but is there any indication such solutions are actually used in this government sponsored usages?