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> the justification of abortion is bodily autonomy then why do so many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers? And please don't say "that's different, it affects other

by Chris2048 5y ago

> the justification of abortion is bodily autonomy then why do so many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers? And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!"

liamwire 5y ago
> And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!" Preempting the flaw in your strawman doesn’t invalidate it. A woman choosing to abort a pregnancy has no bearing on anyone but her. In contrast, the anti-vaccine crowd both directly, and indirectly, contribute to the propagation of disease. Your right to bodily autonomy stops at society’s doorstep, which is broadly agreeing that the unvaccinated don’t get to participate in the non-essential aspects of society, otherwise furthering the risk to everyone else without reason.
- gorwell 5y ago
  "has no bearing on anyone but her." Isn't the baby also affected by that choice?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Isn't the baby also affected by that choice? Legally, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses (like spermatazoa and ova, and unlike babies which are not involved in this) are not persons.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Legally (currently). But... A zygote, an embryo, and a fetus are genetically fully human, and are distinct individuals from the mother. So saying "has no bearing on anyone but [the mother]" is... legally correct, but morally much more grey. And saying "it only affects one person" is also pre-empting the objection to the strawman.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > A zygote, an embryo, and a fetus are genetically fully human, and are distinct individuals from the mother Define “genetically fully human” and “distinct individuals” and provide an argument as to why each is ethically relevant.
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        "Genetically fully human": having 2x23 chromosomes with the full complement of DNA that normal human cells contain; that is, not haploid like spermatozoa or ova. "Distinct individual": Genetically different from the parent, and not just different with a transcription error. Why it's relevant: Because "it's her body" and "it affects nobody else" aren't relevant arguments when it's not just her body, when there's another individual there. Now we have to have a real moral/ethical discussion, and we can't short-circuit it with dismissive strawmen. But I'm fairly sure you knew all of that. I suspect that you just want to keep using the strawmen to avoid having the actual ethical/moral discussion.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Can you clarify what you mean by: > like spermatazoa and ova, and unlike babies which are not involved in this Do mean some fetuses are people aka babies, or all fetuses are distinct from babies and hence not persons.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  So what's the strawman? That many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> then why do so many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers? And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!" Er, why not? The fact that it affects what is legally a non-person entity in whom the State has a legitimate interest is why abortion rights have different parameters later in pregnancy, so why wouldn't it be the consistent that vaccination having public health impacts that affect the life and health of other actual people is relevant?
- Chris2048 5y ago
  since we are arguing about what the law should be, some(thing/one) being "legally a non-person entity" would be circular. At what point is a person a person? "at birth" seems arbitrary.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > At what point is a person a person? "at birth" seems arbitrary All lines dividing up creation into named categories and entities are arbitrary. That one is arbitrary is not an argument against it and in favor of a different (and equally arbitrary) one.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Can you explain what you mean? Are zygote, embryos, foetus and various categorisations of foetal development arbitrary? Or do you mean "arbitrary" specifically in terms of personhood (i.e. there might be a clearly distinguishable stage where the heart starts beating, but this bears no obvious relationship to personhood) > That one is arbitrary is not an argument against it and in favor of a different (and equally arbitrary) one. True, but that's not my aim. I am instead attacking the notion of personhood, which was a dependency of your own argument, not mine. If there are no meaningful indicators of personhood, the only way to avoid aborting a person is to set a limit at a point where a foetus is still likely to be a non-person, because detailed gauges of personhood are otherwise unavailable. I think a better direction for this argument would be to burden you with the question; why aren't we allowed to terminate once a child is born? pre-empting the argument "but then there are no health risks / autonomy considerations" - does that mean all abortions are done for purely health-risk reasons?

> the justification of abortion is bodily autonomy then why do so many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers? And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!"

liamwire 5y ago

> And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!" Preempting the flaw in your strawman doesn’t invalidate it. A woman choosing to abort a pregnancy has no bearing on anyone but her. In contrast, the anti-vaccine crowd both directly, and indirectly, contribute to the propagation of disease. Your right to bodily autonomy stops at society’s doorstep, which is broadly agreeing that the unvaccinated don’t get to participate in the non-essential aspects of society, otherwise furthering the risk to everyone else without reason.

gorwell 5y ago
"has no bearing on anyone but her." Isn't the baby also affected by that choice?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Isn't the baby also affected by that choice? Legally, zygotes, embryos, and fetuses (like spermatazoa and ova, and unlike babies which are not involved in this) are not persons.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Legally (currently). But... A zygote, an embryo, and a fetus are genetically fully human, and are distinct individuals from the mother. So saying "has no bearing on anyone but [the mother]" is... legally correct, but morally much more grey. And saying "it only affects one person" is also pre-empting the objection to the strawman.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > A zygote, an embryo, and a fetus are genetically fully human, and are distinct individuals from the mother Define “genetically fully human” and “distinct individuals” and provide an argument as to why each is ethically relevant.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        "Genetically fully human": having 2x23 chromosomes with the full complement of DNA that normal human cells contain; that is, not haploid like spermatozoa or ova. "Distinct individual": Genetically different from the parent, and not just different with a transcription error. Why it's relevant: Because "it's her body" and "it affects nobody else" aren't relevant arguments when it's not just her body, when there's another individual there. Now we have to have a real moral/ethical discussion, and we can't short-circuit it with dismissive strawmen. But I'm fairly sure you knew all of that. I suspect that you just want to keep using the strawmen to avoid having the actual ethical/moral discussion.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Can you clarify what you mean by: > like spermatazoa and ova, and unlike babies which are not involved in this Do mean some fetuses are people aka babies, or all fetuses are distinct from babies and hence not persons.
Chris2048 5y ago
So what's the strawman? That many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers?

dragonwriter 5y ago

> then why do so many pro-choicers also hate vaxxers? And please don't say "that's different, it affects other people!" Er, why not? The fact that it affects what is legally a non-person entity in whom the State has a legitimate interest is why abortion rights have different parameters later in pregnancy, so why wouldn't it be the consistent that vaccination having public health impacts that affect the life and health of other actual people is relevant?

Chris2048 5y ago
since we are arguing about what the law should be, some(thing/one) being "legally a non-person entity" would be circular. At what point is a person a person? "at birth" seems arbitrary.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > At what point is a person a person? "at birth" seems arbitrary All lines dividing up creation into named categories and entities are arbitrary. That one is arbitrary is not an argument against it and in favor of a different (and equally arbitrary) one.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Can you explain what you mean? Are zygote, embryos, foetus and various categorisations of foetal development arbitrary? Or do you mean "arbitrary" specifically in terms of personhood (i.e. there might be a clearly distinguishable stage where the heart starts beating, but this bears no obvious relationship to personhood) > That one is arbitrary is not an argument against it and in favor of a different (and equally arbitrary) one. True, but that's not my aim. I am instead attacking the notion of personhood, which was a dependency of your own argument, not mine. If there are no meaningful indicators of personhood, the only way to avoid aborting a person is to set a limit at a point where a foetus is still likely to be a non-person, because detailed gauges of personhood are otherwise unavailable. I think a better direction for this argument would be to burden you with the question; why aren't we allowed to terminate once a child is born? pre-empting the argument "but then there are no health risks / autonomy considerations" - does that mean all abortions are done for purely health-risk reasons?