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I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I gr

I generally consider myself a nihilist, but only because it's the very last stop on the bus ride of my failed attempts at religion and other philosophies. I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our own individual existences, the universe will inevitably suffer heat death, from which there is no eternalistic escape. These days, my morality entirely stems from the reduction and prevention of suffering, which is ultimately the only moral currency we have. This led me to veganism and anti-natalism, as the best way to prevent individual suffering is for the individual to never exist in the first place (see: David Benatar's Better Never to Have Been; or Ecclesiastes 4:2-3). Needless to say, these are wildly unpopular philosophies. In light of this, I began to come to the realization that we're all nihilists at our core. We embrace religion or other philosophies to ward it off, because it's a truly uncomfortable sate of mind, as the author notes in this post, and the only alternative is total misery until we die. And then, depending on your philosophy, perhaps a true eternal bliss awaits you in paradise! How convenient! The happy people among us are the best at this practice - lying to ourselves successfully about the true nature of reality. We don't care what gets us there, as long as we get there. All this to say: I was much happier when I believed in God.

corpo_punisho 5y ago
The only alternative to religious thinking is misery? That sounds very much like religion insisting upon itself, like when they claim that without the fear of god we would all be savage and immoral. It's nonsense, really. But there were a few absurd reductions in what you said, including the idea that the prevention of suffering is tenable yet somehow nihilistic. Would it not be more sustainable to focus on spreading joy instead of preventing suffering? That way you won't drive yourself crazy focusing on the negative aspects of humanity.
- causasui 5y ago
  Or any other philosophy, where nihilism is the absence of either. In other words, religion is wonderful for those for whom it works; the same goes for existentialism (our meaning comes from within) or really literally anything else that gets you through the day. Every morning we wake up and the vast majority of us decide to not jump off a tall building. Why?
  - corpo_punisho 5y ago
    For various reasons. But without our individual reason, the alternative is not misery. We can come up with other reasons. Or just do without reason (such as when we satisfy natural drives).
    - me_me_me 5y ago
      People growing up indoctrinated in a religion are way more prone to having problem with meaning of life. They grow up having meaning of life, and all the rules to follow to get to the better place. You don't think you just follow. When you break out of shackles of religion you are faced with reality, you are responsible for finding the meaning, you are responsible for creating rules for your life and to follow them. Its my pet peeve when I hear 'atheists are just lazy and left the religion because its easier'. When its the opposite. A godless person that understands that concept of god (more precisely any god that people claim exists and talked to them via various means) doesn't make sense, is burdened with all complexity of life without mental shortcuts religion provides. All that said, de-converting into atheistism doesn't automatically translate into lifelong misery.
ToJans 5y ago
Might I suggest you to take a look at "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius? It might be a long shot, not maybe you can find some peace in it... Update: ...and if stoicism isn't your thing, maybe epicurism is...
- causasui 5y ago
  I good friend of mine gifted me this book some years ago. I ended up reading it during a jury duty stint, incidentally. Seems appropriate in hindsight.
- pssm 5y ago
  I also suggest the "How to Think Like a Roman Emperor" as an introduction to the subject - it's a good read.
hug 5y ago
I'm an existentialist, not a nihilist. Not even at my core. I never, really, believed in God despite being the son of a religious couple and the grandfather of a preacher. I don't know that there's a way to escape heat death either, but my answer to that is: So what? I don't see why that should make me a nihilist. Nor do I really see why deciding to try to prevent suffering through veganism should follow from any of the above. Instead I'd rather continue to muddle along my path. Leveraging what ability I can to make enough money that I can do whatever it is I feel like doing and end up going to bed happy. And that involves eating delicious things and having good times with the ones I love and doing drugs and drinking and contributing to charity and whatever else. It doesn't, really, solve any of my problems. It doesn't, in and of itself, make me 'happy'. But I'm okay with it. What makes me happy is the drugs.
- rgun 5y ago
  This is the exact same conclusion I came to from we-cannot-escape-the-heat-death argument. I will just make myself and my loved ones happy (latter because it indirectly makes me happy). On an unrelated note, is your grandfather a preacher or your grandson?
  - hug 5y ago
    I am the grandson of a preacher and also an idiot.
benjaminjosephw 5y ago
Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fail to see reality as having meaning beyond the meaning they can individually make sense of. I think we can only ever really understand ourselves as humans in relation to other humans. Our individual ideas about who we are can only form in context of our ideas about who other people are and in relationship with them. This is an open system where meaning is an emergent property. Life create meaning, order and structure in the context of complex systems. This is a force as powerful and pervasive as entropy but much less understood. Meaning exists outside of ourselves.
- rjbwork 5y ago
  And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psychic suffering. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but attempting to create meaning strictly in relation to others is no panacea for existential dread and the fundamental nihilism of what I, and the OP, believe to be reality - that is, a strictly physicalist universe devoid of metaphysical or supernatural forces or beings.
  - rramadass 5y ago
    Well said!
  - scns 5y ago
    And this suffering is the key to unlocking your freedom IMHO. The best thing i read red about it so far is from Khalil Gibrans' The Prophet: And a woman spoke, saying, Tell us of Pain. And he said: Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain. And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy; And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields. And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief. Much of your pain is self-chosen. It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility: For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen, And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears. (Edit) formatting
scns 5y ago
Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me. Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life. I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think of myself and other humans as naked apes with a mind which is on the one hand extremely weak (If the elephant wants someting else, the rider is powerless) but on the other hand able to believe in ideas which are detrimental to its' own health. I think the meaning of life is the same for humans, bacteria and all other living beings: survive and procreate, nothing more. For many minds this does not seem to be enough, for me it is.
- yann2 5y ago
  Obviously its not enough. Right now my mind needs icecream and music for example.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
0-_-0 5y ago
What does the heat death of the universe have to do with meaning? Just to apply reductio ad absurdum to the anti-natalism argument: If there was a virus that would prevent all animals and humans on the planet from reproducing, leading to the quick extinction of all consciousness, would that be a moral good?
- rgun 5y ago
  It would not be "morally bad". It has just hastened the timeline for everything losing meaning (thousands/millions/billions of years from now -> now).
  - 0-_-0 5y ago
    If meaning is good, then wouldn't losing meaning be bad?
- kongin 5y ago
  If it caused no other harm yes. Because you would still get to live a long life, just not inflict it on someone else.
  - 0-_-0 5y ago
    Why is living bad? Would you rather not live right now?
    - kongin 5y ago
      Killing something alive is different to not creating a life. Asking me to kill myself is a rather poor attempt at a gotcha. The better question is why aren't you having children as often as possible if you think life is worth while. On average any fertile couple can produce around 12 children, if you're not on track to have that number of children but think that life is so grand then why aren't you? The difference between you and me is that you're ok with not creating 9 to 11 lives during your reproductive age, I'm ok with not creating 12.
codebolt 5y ago
> I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our own individual existences, the universe will inevitably suffer heat death, from which there is no eternalistic escape. Seems that this view of human existence as something inherently temporary underpins a lot of nihilist thinking. However, there is a lot of scientific evidence in favor of eternalism (i.e. the philosophy of time, as opposed to presentism) if you only care to look. For one, it seems to me you have to basically reject all of relativistic physics if you want to maintain a perspective on the universe where only the present moment exists. This is because the relativity of simultaneity tells us that there is no such thing as a universal present moment. How can only a single moment exist when there is no such thing as a single moment? I think a lot of people who despair in nihilist thought would do a lot better if they simply updated their understanding of universe from being stuck in the 19th century.
- kongin 5y ago
  >For one, it seems to me you have to basically reject all of relativistic physics if you want to maintain a perspective on the universe where only the present moment exists. This is because the relativity of simultaneity tells us that there is no such thing as a universal present moment. How can only a single moment exist when there is no such thing as a single moment? Humans do extremely poorly in relativistic environments because we tend to become expanding clouds of atoms at the energies needed to make relativity relevant to every day experience. At the energies we can survive at a universal time is an extremely good approximation to your daily experience.
  - codebolt 5y ago
    Yes, but regardless of their relevance to our daily lives, Einstein's equations do have strong implications about the basic structure of the universe. And that structure is fundamentally not compatible with ontological presentism.
    - 5y ago
famil 5y ago
Eliminating suffering and preventing (re)birth? Sounds like Buddhism.

corpo_punisho 5y ago

The only alternative to religious thinking is misery? That sounds very much like religion insisting upon itself, like when they claim that without the fear of god we would all be savage and immoral. It's nonsense, really. But there were a few absurd reductions in what you said, including the idea that the prevention of suffering is tenable yet somehow nihilistic. Would it not be more sustainable to focus on spreading joy instead of preventing suffering? That way you won't drive yourself crazy focusing on the negative aspects of humanity.

causasui 5y ago
Or any other philosophy, where nihilism is the absence of either. In other words, religion is wonderful for those for whom it works; the same goes for existentialism (our meaning comes from within) or really literally anything else that gets you through the day. Every morning we wake up and the vast majority of us decide to not jump off a tall building. Why?
- corpo_punisho 5y ago
  For various reasons. But without our individual reason, the alternative is not misery. We can come up with other reasons. Or just do without reason (such as when we satisfy natural drives).
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    People growing up indoctrinated in a religion are way more prone to having problem with meaning of life. They grow up having meaning of life, and all the rules to follow to get to the better place. You don't think you just follow. When you break out of shackles of religion you are faced with reality, you are responsible for finding the meaning, you are responsible for creating rules for your life and to follow them. Its my pet peeve when I hear 'atheists are just lazy and left the religion because its easier'. When its the opposite. A godless person that understands that concept of god (more precisely any god that people claim exists and talked to them via various means) doesn't make sense, is burdened with all complexity of life without mental shortcuts religion provides. All that said, de-converting into atheistism doesn't automatically translate into lifelong misery.

ToJans 5y ago

Might I suggest you to take a look at "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius? It might be a long shot, not maybe you can find some peace in it... Update: ...and if stoicism isn't your thing, maybe epicurism is...

causasui 5y ago
I good friend of mine gifted me this book some years ago. I ended up reading it during a jury duty stint, incidentally. Seems appropriate in hindsight.
pssm 5y ago
I also suggest the "How to Think Like a Roman Emperor" as an introduction to the subject - it's a good read.

hug 5y ago

I'm an existentialist, not a nihilist. Not even at my core. I never, really, believed in God despite being the son of a religious couple and the grandfather of a preacher. I don't know that there's a way to escape heat death either, but my answer to that is: So what? I don't see why that should make me a nihilist. Nor do I really see why deciding to try to prevent suffering through veganism should follow from any of the above. Instead I'd rather continue to muddle along my path. Leveraging what ability I can to make enough money that I can do whatever it is I feel like doing and end up going to bed happy. And that involves eating delicious things and having good times with the ones I love and doing drugs and drinking and contributing to charity and whatever else. It doesn't, really, solve any of my problems. It doesn't, in and of itself, make me 'happy'. But I'm okay with it. What makes me happy is the drugs.

rgun 5y ago
This is the exact same conclusion I came to from we-cannot-escape-the-heat-death argument. I will just make myself and my loved ones happy (latter because it indirectly makes me happy). On an unrelated note, is your grandfather a preacher or your grandson?
- hug 5y ago
  I am the grandson of a preacher and also an idiot.

benjaminjosephw 5y ago

Individualism is a closed system. Any attempt to find meaning in isolation as a lone consciousness is subject to the same kind of force as the entropy of closed physical systems. It becomes almost impossible to pattern match on significance because the dataset is too small and the variance in factors that might influence our thinking is too great. All Nihilists are focused only on their own existence because they fail to see reality as having meaning beyond the meaning they can individually make sense of. I think we can only ever really understand ourselves as humans in relation to other humans. Our individual ideas about who we are can only form in context of our ideas about who other people are and in relationship with them. This is an open system where meaning is an emergent property. Life create meaning, order and structure in the context of complex systems. This is a force as powerful and pervasive as entropy but much less understood. Meaning exists outside of ourselves.

rjbwork 5y ago
And yet, as Sartre shows us in No Exit, it is the very presence of other humans and our being forced to view ourselves from the perspective of others that causes us so much existential dread and pain. The mere presence of other sentient beings which perceive, judge, interpret, and conceive of us in some abstract mental model of our being, as opposed to the actual and/or self-perception of our being, causes untold psychic suffering. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but attempting to create meaning strictly in relation to others is no panacea for existential dread and the fundamental nihilism of what I, and the OP, believe to be reality - that is, a strictly physicalist universe devoid of metaphysical or supernatural forces or beings.
- rramadass 5y ago
  Well said!
- scns 5y ago
  And this suffering is the key to unlocking your freedom IMHO. The best thing i read red about it so far is from Khalil Gibrans' The Prophet: And a woman spoke, saying, Tell us of Pain. And he said: Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding. Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain. And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy; And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields. And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief. Much of your pain is self-chosen. It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility: For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen, And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears. (Edit) formatting

scns 5y ago

Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me. Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life. I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think of myself and other humans as naked apes with a mind which is on the one hand extremely weak (If the elephant wants someting else, the rider is powerless) but on the other hand able to believe in ideas which are detrimental to its' own health. I think the meaning of life is the same for humans, bacteria and all other living beings: survive and procreate, nothing more. For many minds this does not seem to be enough, for me it is.

yann2 5y ago
Obviously its not enough. Right now my mind needs icecream and music for example.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

0-_-0 5y ago

What does the heat death of the universe have to do with meaning? Just to apply reductio ad absurdum to the anti-natalism argument: If there was a virus that would prevent all animals and humans on the planet from reproducing, leading to the quick extinction of all consciousness, would that be a moral good?

rgun 5y ago
It would not be "morally bad". It has just hastened the timeline for everything losing meaning (thousands/millions/billions of years from now -> now).
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  If meaning is good, then wouldn't losing meaning be bad?
kongin 5y ago
If it caused no other harm yes. Because you would still get to live a long life, just not inflict it on someone else.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  Why is living bad? Would you rather not live right now?
  - kongin 5y ago
    Killing something alive is different to not creating a life. Asking me to kill myself is a rather poor attempt at a gotcha. The better question is why aren't you having children as often as possible if you think life is worth while. On average any fertile couple can produce around 12 children, if you're not on track to have that number of children but think that life is so grand then why aren't you? The difference between you and me is that you're ok with not creating 9 to 11 lives during your reproductive age, I'm ok with not creating 12.

codebolt 5y ago

> I grew up very religious and when I lost my faith in my 20s, I tried to replace it w/ absurdism and existentialism, but couldn't shake the notion that lives deep in me that ultimately, even if humanity spreads across the cosmos and we're able to find meaning in our own individual existences, the universe will inevitably suffer heat death, from which there is no eternalistic escape. Seems that this view of human existence as something inherently temporary underpins a lot of nihilist thinking. However, there is a lot of scientific evidence in favor of eternalism (i.e. the philosophy of time, as opposed to presentism) if you only care to look. For one, it seems to me you have to basically reject all of relativistic physics if you want to maintain a perspective on the universe where only the present moment exists. This is because the relativity of simultaneity tells us that there is no such thing as a universal present moment. How can only a single moment exist when there is no such thing as a single moment? I think a lot of people who despair in nihilist thought would do a lot better if they simply updated their understanding of universe from being stuck in the 19th century.

kongin 5y ago
>For one, it seems to me you have to basically reject all of relativistic physics if you want to maintain a perspective on the universe where only the present moment exists. This is because the relativity of simultaneity tells us that there is no such thing as a universal present moment. How can only a single moment exist when there is no such thing as a single moment? Humans do extremely poorly in relativistic environments because we tend to become expanding clouds of atoms at the energies needed to make relativity relevant to every day experience. At the energies we can survive at a universal time is an extremely good approximation to your daily experience.
- codebolt 5y ago
  Yes, but regardless of their relevance to our daily lives, Einstein's equations do have strong implications about the basic structure of the universe. And that structure is fundamentally not compatible with ontological presentism.
  - 5y ago

famil 5y ago

Eliminating suffering and preventing (re)birth? Sounds like Buddhism.