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I'd hope someone would know fairly early in the pregnancy if they will be able to provide for a child or not. (i.e. before the baby can feel pain, is basically

I'd hope someone would know fairly early in the pregnancy if they will be able to provide for a child or not. (i.e. before the baby can feel pain, is basically a complete human being, etc.) That's why there's so much interest in defining limits around abortions. Late term abortions are pretty much described as horrific by the vast majority. There should be room for political agreement here.

KittenInABox 5y ago
My understanding is that late term abortions are almost always cases of extreme tragedy already.
ehnto 5y ago
I know it's relevant because it's the politics that are setting the rules right now, but political agreement isn't really the crux of the discussion for me. It's about minimizing suffering and the ethics of controlling someone else's body. That said, I don't think there will be political agreement because it's not 100% about the rules around abortions anyway. It's a political instrument at this point. Either side is trying to win, not do what's right, and that's how things have gotten so extreme.
lostcolony 5y ago
Most abortions are as soon as the woman knows she's pregnant. Very, very few are late term, and, as a sibling mentions, those are almost universally due to health risks (possibly also a major change in financial status, relationship, etc). To be clear, you are right that a late term abortion is pretty horrific. They're also -traumatic-. No one is -intentionally- waiting around to get an abortion; there isn't room for political argument here because anyone who finds themselves pregnant at a late stage and doesn't want to be is already in the case of "reasonable exception". A medical complication, a change in financial status to where she can't support it (when before she thought she could), etc. No one is finding out they're pregnant in the first trimester, and then just can't make up their mind until the third, and we as a society need to set a date she has to make up her mind, or force her to keep it against her will. That's a made up justification, and as we continue to see, the same forces that make that justification don't even stop there.
- Thorrez 5y ago
  >those are almost universally due to health risks >But data suggest that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1363/4521013 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1363/4521013 >“[t]here aren’t good data on how often later abortions are for medical reasons.” >“Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize,” the report stated. https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-questions-answers-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-qu...
  - emn13 5y ago
    For perspective, note that the studies you're referring to are studying a rare occurrence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion refers to CDC statistics that 1% of abortions may be at 21+ weeks, but even that is with the caveat that what they're really looking at is medical procedures, and thus that "According to the CDC, due to data collection difficulties the data must be viewed as tentative and some fetal deaths reported beyond 20 weeks may be natural deaths erroneously classified as abortions if the removal of the dead fetus is accomplished by the same procedure as an induced abortion." Additionally, 56% of women declined to participate in the study, and there will surely be some correlation between that choice and the cause for the termination. Of course that doesn't invalidate the findings; but it is a a fairly small number of events they're talking about here, that's all.
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      Not to mention the reply left out my original "possibly also a major change in financial status, relationship, etc", since my entire point was that late term abortions, while for a variety of reasons, are not simply people taking the most expensive, most traumatic, most controversial option as a form of contraceptive. It's for a variety of nuanced, complex reasons that aren't "for convenience", as the convenient path is always to abort or prevent the pregnancy earlier. Which is why pro-choice advocates say it should be between the woman and her doctor, -not- government; the fact the situation is arising at all means it is exceptional.
emn13 5y ago
They do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#/media/File:US_abortion_by_gestational_age_2016_histogram.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#/media/File:US_aborti...

KittenInABox 5y ago

My understanding is that late term abortions are almost always cases of extreme tragedy already.

ehnto 5y ago

I know it's relevant because it's the politics that are setting the rules right now, but political agreement isn't really the crux of the discussion for me. It's about minimizing suffering and the ethics of controlling someone else's body. That said, I don't think there will be political agreement because it's not 100% about the rules around abortions anyway. It's a political instrument at this point. Either side is trying to win, not do what's right, and that's how things have gotten so extreme.

lostcolony 5y ago

Most abortions are as soon as the woman knows she's pregnant. Very, very few are late term, and, as a sibling mentions, those are almost universally due to health risks (possibly also a major change in financial status, relationship, etc). To be clear, you are right that a late term abortion is pretty horrific. They're also -traumatic-. No one is -intentionally- waiting around to get an abortion; there isn't room for political argument here because anyone who finds themselves pregnant at a late stage and doesn't want to be is already in the case of "reasonable exception". A medical complication, a change in financial status to where she can't support it (when before she thought she could), etc. No one is finding out they're pregnant in the first trimester, and then just can't make up their mind until the third, and we as a society need to set a date she has to make up her mind, or force her to keep it against her will. That's a made up justification, and as we continue to see, the same forces that make that justification don't even stop there.

Thorrez 5y ago
>those are almost universally due to health risks >But data suggest that most women seeking later terminations are not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1363/4521013 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1363/4521013 >“[t]here aren’t good data on how often later abortions are for medical reasons.” >“Based on limited research and discussions with researchers in the field, Dr. Foster believes that abortions for fetal anomaly ‘make up a small minority of later abortion’ and that those for life endangerment are even harder to characterize,” the report stated. https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-questions-answers-late-term-abortions-law-women-who-get-them/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/06/tough-qu...
- emn13 5y ago
  For perspective, note that the studies you're referring to are studying a rare occurrence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion refers to CDC statistics that 1% of abortions may be at 21+ weeks, but even that is with the caveat that what they're really looking at is medical procedures, and thus that "According to the CDC, due to data collection difficulties the data must be viewed as tentative and some fetal deaths reported beyond 20 weeks may be natural deaths erroneously classified as abortions if the removal of the dead fetus is accomplished by the same procedure as an induced abortion." Additionally, 56% of women declined to participate in the study, and there will surely be some correlation between that choice and the cause for the termination. Of course that doesn't invalidate the findings; but it is a a fairly small number of events they're talking about here, that's all.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Not to mention the reply left out my original "possibly also a major change in financial status, relationship, etc", since my entire point was that late term abortions, while for a variety of reasons, are not simply people taking the most expensive, most traumatic, most controversial option as a form of contraceptive. It's for a variety of nuanced, complex reasons that aren't "for convenience", as the convenient path is always to abort or prevent the pregnancy earlier. Which is why pro-choice advocates say it should be between the woman and her doctor, -not- government; the fact the situation is arising at all means it is exceptional.

emn13 5y ago

They do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#/media/File:US_abortion_by_gestational_age_2016_histogram.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#/media/File:US_aborti...