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Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software eng

by jw433 5y ago

Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?

effingwewt 5y ago
6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  just to reiterate here- I'd bet you most janitors could code if given the same classes. Or maybe they can't code maybe they'd be better as a manager or HR or PM, or fuck even CEO. I'm tired of this bullshit rhetoric that SEs are somehow smarter than everyone else. I know some absolutely fucktarded people working for some pretty big companies in some pretty big roles. One is a doctor I wouldn't trust with my cat. Your job does not speak to your intelligence. Janitors can be smart too. Maybe this is all because movies like Good Will Hunting aren't made anymore.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    Nobody said anything about intelligence. The person you originally replied to said skills. Just because I could spend a year learning something if I so choose, doesn't mean that I currently have those skills. They're called low skill jobs, not low intelligence jobs.
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      His point was he has the skills. I made the point about bootcamps, skills are easily obtained. Implying the janitor could not gain the skills is insane. Thinking a SE could begin a janitorial job tomorrow and do it as well as the janitor is laughable. SE skills are just a bit harder to come by, they aren't special. If your skills can be learned in a 6 week course you are not an astrophysicist nor a brain surgeon. SEs are paid well and so have an overinflated self-value. Again, now that this is crashing with WFH. We have code chop shops in India, yet we still try and pretend coding is some modern-day magic language. ninja edit- hit reply b4 finished 2nd edit- reminded me of this [1] infamous That Mitchell and Webb Look sketch =) [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
      - kikimora 5y ago
        I used to believe that a good bootcamp can make a developer out of anyone. I changed my mind after trying to teach programming to a couple of people. In all failed cases people was not trained to thing algorithmically, that is being able to pick a piece apart and build a thing out of small parts, all in mind. Like looking at what a single iteration of a loop does and imagining what will be the end result. A person either has this skill and then she can learn on her own even without a teacher. Or she does not have it and then no matter how hard you try to explain Java/Python/JS/etc she does not get it at a very basic level. I do agree that learning how to code is not that hard given that you have certain skills already. But said skills are rare. This might explain why programmers think it is easy to learn programming but we don’t see an influx of skilled developers despite boot camps and online courses available for free. Maybe changing something at an elementary school level would fix the problem. I have no idea how to do it but I know for sure that we need to teach people a certain way of thinking and this is a prerequisite to being a successful programmer. As soon as you have that way of thinking learning Python or Java is a piece of cake. And I absolutely sure that anyone can learn it, we are simply super bad at teaching the right skills to people.
        effingwewt 5y ago
        I agree about boot camps. I didn't say it would make them good coders, just able to code. I've worked with code monkeys who did nothing but C/P from SO, who had no idea how their code worked. I've worked with 'hardware repair specialists' who didn't know the how/why of hardware, they could only parrot what they saw on YouTube. Some (read- rich) schools are teaching programming early, but I agree 100% if we had all public schools teach it early it would remove much of the mysticism. Anyways sorry if I come across as heated on this issue, just some of the best people I've ever met made the least and had the most menial of jobs. edit to add- my mother (a horrible, evil person), was head of Sandia Labs IT(weapons defense contractors for the govt), she had a masters in accounting and knew nothing about computers and servers. This woman- who was on call 24/7 and still had beepers in 2010 as they are more reliable than cellphones, couldn't use a desktop computer and had Win98 as her OS when the rest of the world was on Win 7. I don't understand this world.

by jw433 5y ago

Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?

effingwewt 5y ago

6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.

effingwewt 5y ago
just to reiterate here- I'd bet you most janitors could code if given the same classes. Or maybe they can't code maybe they'd be better as a manager or HR or PM, or fuck even CEO. I'm tired of this bullshit rhetoric that SEs are somehow smarter than everyone else. I know some absolutely fucktarded people working for some pretty big companies in some pretty big roles. One is a doctor I wouldn't trust with my cat. Your job does not speak to your intelligence. Janitors can be smart too. Maybe this is all because movies like Good Will Hunting aren't made anymore.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  Nobody said anything about intelligence. The person you originally replied to said skills. Just because I could spend a year learning something if I so choose, doesn't mean that I currently have those skills. They're called low skill jobs, not low intelligence jobs.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    His point was he has the skills. I made the point about bootcamps, skills are easily obtained. Implying the janitor could not gain the skills is insane. Thinking a SE could begin a janitorial job tomorrow and do it as well as the janitor is laughable. SE skills are just a bit harder to come by, they aren't special. If your skills can be learned in a 6 week course you are not an astrophysicist nor a brain surgeon. SEs are paid well and so have an overinflated self-value. Again, now that this is crashing with WFH. We have code chop shops in India, yet we still try and pretend coding is some modern-day magic language. ninja edit- hit reply b4 finished 2nd edit- reminded me of this [1] infamous That Mitchell and Webb Look sketch =) [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
    - kikimora 5y ago
      I used to believe that a good bootcamp can make a developer out of anyone. I changed my mind after trying to teach programming to a couple of people. In all failed cases people was not trained to thing algorithmically, that is being able to pick a piece apart and build a thing out of small parts, all in mind. Like looking at what a single iteration of a loop does and imagining what will be the end result. A person either has this skill and then she can learn on her own even without a teacher. Or she does not have it and then no matter how hard you try to explain Java/Python/JS/etc she does not get it at a very basic level. I do agree that learning how to code is not that hard given that you have certain skills already. But said skills are rare. This might explain why programmers think it is easy to learn programming but we don’t see an influx of skilled developers despite boot camps and online courses available for free. Maybe changing something at an elementary school level would fix the problem. I have no idea how to do it but I know for sure that we need to teach people a certain way of thinking and this is a prerequisite to being a successful programmer. As soon as you have that way of thinking learning Python or Java is a piece of cake. And I absolutely sure that anyone can learn it, we are simply super bad at teaching the right skills to people.
      - effingwewt 5y ago
        I agree about boot camps. I didn't say it would make them good coders, just able to code. I've worked with code monkeys who did nothing but C/P from SO, who had no idea how their code worked. I've worked with 'hardware repair specialists' who didn't know the how/why of hardware, they could only parrot what they saw on YouTube. Some (read- rich) schools are teaching programming early, but I agree 100% if we had all public schools teach it early it would remove much of the mysticism. Anyways sorry if I come across as heated on this issue, just some of the best people I've ever met made the least and had the most menial of jobs. edit to add- my mother (a horrible, evil person), was head of Sandia Labs IT(weapons defense contractors for the govt), she had a masters in accounting and knew nothing about computers and servers. This woman- who was on call 24/7 and still had beepers in 2010 as they are more reliable than cellphones, couldn't use a desktop computer and had Win98 as her OS when the rest of the world was on Win 7. I don't understand this world.