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So wait, if all western governments have this (I doubt it's just germany) and are using it, and it works as advertised, then aren't the politicians worried abou

So wait, if all western governments have this (I doubt it's just germany) and are using it, and it works as advertised, then aren't the politicians worried about all being hacked themselves by each other's governments? Isn't there one sane operator who would like to instead report these zero days and then have a (more) secure device them self?

ben_w 5y ago
I’ve heard it claimed that governments consider spying on allies to be normal, even useful. Makes it easier to know what political doors are open and which are closed. No idea how true that really is, but it’s at least a more optimistic and hopeful view of things than the idea each government is supremely arrogant and thinks its own defence team can hold back everyone else’s offensive teams, which is closer to my own personal expectation of what’s going on.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
CobrastanJorji 5y ago
Bruce Schneier's written a few times on the subject of what the NSA should do, when coming across a powerful exploit. This can be a surprisingly complex calculus when you're thinking solely strategically and not specifically about privacy or ethics as goals in of themselves. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/should-hackers-fix-cybersecurity-holes-or-exploit-them/371197/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/shoul... In this article, Schneier suggests that if the US and China have an iPhone exploit, and exploits are very rare, then the US should disclose and patch it because it's likely that China has the same exploit. But if exploits are not very rare, then the US should not disclose the one it knows because China probably knows a different one, so the US would lose its capability to spy on China but China would still be able to spy on the US. His conclusion, though, is different, and argues for erring on the side of patching bugs.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  Non state actors with fairly limited budgets seem to be able to get exploits all the time and fairly powerful ones at that. It probably means that exploits are considerably less rare since there are multiple private exploit for hire vendors that target iPhones these days.
  - jonplackett 5y ago
    Would NSO be using one or a couple of powerful exploits this whole time, or would Apple have figured these out by now and fixed? Basically, is it secrecy keeping it working or are they just staying ahead by continuously developing new exploits?
    - dogma1138 5y ago
      Apple fixes them and they find new ones, one of the reasons they are successful is because they seem to be able to “guarantee” long term access.

ben_w 5y ago

I’ve heard it claimed that governments consider spying on allies to be normal, even useful. Makes it easier to know what political doors are open and which are closed. No idea how true that really is, but it’s at least a more optimistic and hopeful view of things than the idea each government is supremely arrogant and thinks its own defence team can hold back everyone else’s offensive teams, which is closer to my own personal expectation of what’s going on.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

CobrastanJorji 5y ago

Bruce Schneier's written a few times on the subject of what the NSA should do, when coming across a powerful exploit. This can be a surprisingly complex calculus when you're thinking solely strategically and not specifically about privacy or ethics as goals in of themselves. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/should-hackers-fix-cybersecurity-holes-or-exploit-them/371197/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/05/shoul... In this article, Schneier suggests that if the US and China have an iPhone exploit, and exploits are very rare, then the US should disclose and patch it because it's likely that China has the same exploit. But if exploits are not very rare, then the US should not disclose the one it knows because China probably knows a different one, so the US would lose its capability to spy on China but China would still be able to spy on the US. His conclusion, though, is different, and argues for erring on the side of patching bugs.

dogma1138 5y ago
Non state actors with fairly limited budgets seem to be able to get exploits all the time and fairly powerful ones at that. It probably means that exploits are considerably less rare since there are multiple private exploit for hire vendors that target iPhones these days.
- jonplackett 5y ago
  Would NSO be using one or a couple of powerful exploits this whole time, or would Apple have figured these out by now and fixed? Basically, is it secrecy keeping it working or are they just staying ahead by continuously developing new exploits?
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    Apple fixes them and they find new ones, one of the reasons they are successful is because they seem to be able to “guarantee” long term access.