4 ms·

Because I know what it means to work a 40hour shitty job. And I mean shitty. As in fill paint cans and inhale paint fumes all week shitty. I mean crawl into a c

by neals 5y ago

Because I know what it means to work a 40hour shitty job. And I mean shitty. As in fill paint cans and inhale paint fumes all week shitty. I mean crawl into a conveyor belt that's stuck, use a torch to heat it up and a sledgehammer to straighten it shitty. That I'm now able to what I do and earn what I earn, to me, is like a miracle and I enjoy every minute of it.

clipradiowallet 5y ago
I empathize with your sentiment.. I checked out of IT-related work in my 20's, and the moment I checked back in was sitting on the floor of a production welding shop, impact drilling holes through plate steel. I had this moment of clarity when I realized that however "unhappy" IT made me, it wasn't nearly as miserable as the alternative I had stumbled into. Or as my dad put it: better to work with your head than your hands, isn't it son?
- effingwewt 5y ago
  This all still skirts the main issue. Why does the janitor get paid so much less for a shitty job almost no one wants to do? Why do we have damn near minimum wage construction jobs? Many jobs are important, all should be paid accordingly. Failing that, shouldn't the most labor intensive jobs therefore pay the best? The incentives are so skewed in society now. And I say that as someone who has done all kinds of crazy jobs from cushy to hell.
  - jw433 5y ago
    Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.
      - effingwewt 5y ago
        just to reiterate here- I'd bet you most janitors could code if given the same classes. Or maybe they can't code maybe they'd be better as a manager or HR or PM, or fuck even CEO. I'm tired of this bullshit rhetoric that SEs are somehow smarter than everyone else. I know some absolutely fucktarded people working for some pretty big companies in some pretty big roles. One is a doctor I wouldn't trust with my cat. Your job does not speak to your intelligence. Janitors can be smart too. Maybe this is all because movies like Good Will Hunting aren't made anymore.
        xboxnolifes 5y ago
        Nobody said anything about intelligence. The person you originally replied to said skills. Just because I could spend a year learning something if I so choose, doesn't mean that I currently have those skills. They're called low skill jobs, not low intelligence jobs.
        effingwewt 5y ago
        His point was he has the skills. I made the point about bootcamps, skills are easily obtained. Implying the janitor could not gain the skills is insane. Thinking a SE could begin a janitorial job tomorrow and do it as well as the janitor is laughable. SE skills are just a bit harder to come by, they aren't special. If your skills can be learned in a 6 week course you are not an astrophysicist nor a brain surgeon. SEs are paid well and so have an overinflated self-value. Again, now that this is crashing with WFH. We have code chop shops in India, yet we still try and pretend coding is some modern-day magic language. ninja edit- hit reply b4 finished 2nd edit- reminded me of this [1] infamous That Mitchell and Webb Look sketch =) [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
        kikimora 5y ago
        I used to believe that a good bootcamp can make a developer out of anyone. I changed my mind after trying to teach programming to a couple of people. In all failed cases people was not trained to thing algorithmically, that is being able to pick a piece apart and build a thing out of small parts, all in mind. Like looking at what a single iteration of a loop does and imagining what will be the end result. A person either has this skill and then she can learn on her own even without a teacher. Or she does not have it and then no matter how hard you try to explain Java/Python/JS/etc she does not get it at a very basic level. I do agree that learning how to code is not that hard given that you have certain skills already. But said skills are rare. This might explain why programmers think it is easy to learn programming but we don’t see an influx of skilled developers despite boot camps and online courses available for free. Maybe changing something at an elementary school level would fix the problem. I have no idea how to do it but I know for sure that we need to teach people a certain way of thinking and this is a prerequisite to being a successful programmer. As soon as you have that way of thinking learning Python or Java is a piece of cake. And I absolutely sure that anyone can learn it, we are simply super bad at teaching the right skills to people.
  - pjlegato 5y ago
    Rate of pay is empirically determined by the intersection of supply and demand for that job, not by how important a particular person or group thinks a job ought to be considered a priori. Where supply is much larger than demand -- that is, where many people can easily replace the person doing the job and perform similar work -- wages are low. When not many people can do a demanded job, wages are high. Note that I am not making any moral claims about this fact being good or bad; just pointing out that it is indeed an objective fact. This dynamic notably holds true even in non-capitalist economic systems, such as in Communist countries where the rate of pay is legally fixed at the same level for all jobs: people simply barter out of band with non-monetary forms of value transfer (блат) instead, to compensate for the inability to use money to find the supply/demand intersection.
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      Supply vs demand works until WFH begins to even the payscale. SEs everywhere started screaming about pay reductions. There is no lack of SWEs, that is now more than apparent. It's simply the flavor of the decade, just like last bubble it was website/graphics design. Bubble is bursting IMO.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        I think the bubble is shearing perhaps. The top wages for SWEs in many markets seem to be going up and substantially so, while the wages for the broad middle of the market in globally high-cost locations aren’t going up and, as you observe, are at risk of falling as/if WFH-driven globalization accelerates.
wccrawford 5y ago
I had intended to keep programming as a hobby, but I had a moment of clarity one day when I realized that was my one skill that I already had that could make lots of money. For the most part, I haven't regretted it, though I was correct that I wouldn't do as much programming in my free time if I did it as a job. It hasn't really mattered, though. The programming I do during my day job is always towards a purpose and usually has a clear goal. I generally find the programming itself quite rewarding, even if I'm often frustrated with the things around it. Now that I'm older, I realize I could also have picked a lot of other jobs and learned them relatively quickly, but I still think I made the right decision. Those other things are now my hobbies.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  If my house and kids’ college were paid off, I’d happily program for half of the prevailing wages for SWEs in the US. I do it for fun on the side anyway; if you want me to work on your puzzles, you have to pay me, but we’ll both end up happy when you do.
lentil_soup 5y ago
Ok, but it's also possible to have a non-shitty 40hour job
- saulpw 5y ago
  It's also possible to have a non-shitty tech job. So I hear anyway.
birksherty 5y ago
Because just being able have a pleasant life is a big privilege and most people in the world won't have this ever.

by neals 5y ago

clipradiowallet 5y ago

I empathize with your sentiment.. I checked out of IT-related work in my 20's, and the moment I checked back in was sitting on the floor of a production welding shop, impact drilling holes through plate steel. I had this moment of clarity when I realized that however "unhappy" IT made me, it wasn't nearly as miserable as the alternative I had stumbled into. Or as my dad put it: better to work with your head than your hands, isn't it son?

effingwewt 5y ago
This all still skirts the main issue. Why does the janitor get paid so much less for a shitty job almost no one wants to do? Why do we have damn near minimum wage construction jobs? Many jobs are important, all should be paid accordingly. Failing that, shouldn't the most labor intensive jobs therefore pay the best? The incentives are so skewed in society now. And I say that as someone who has done all kinds of crazy jobs from cushy to hell.
- jw433 5y ago
  Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      just to reiterate here- I'd bet you most janitors could code if given the same classes. Or maybe they can't code maybe they'd be better as a manager or HR or PM, or fuck even CEO. I'm tired of this bullshit rhetoric that SEs are somehow smarter than everyone else. I know some absolutely fucktarded people working for some pretty big companies in some pretty big roles. One is a doctor I wouldn't trust with my cat. Your job does not speak to your intelligence. Janitors can be smart too. Maybe this is all because movies like Good Will Hunting aren't made anymore.
      - xboxnolifes 5y ago
        Nobody said anything about intelligence. The person you originally replied to said skills. Just because I could spend a year learning something if I so choose, doesn't mean that I currently have those skills. They're called low skill jobs, not low intelligence jobs.
        effingwewt 5y ago
        His point was he has the skills. I made the point about bootcamps, skills are easily obtained. Implying the janitor could not gain the skills is insane. Thinking a SE could begin a janitorial job tomorrow and do it as well as the janitor is laughable. SE skills are just a bit harder to come by, they aren't special. If your skills can be learned in a 6 week course you are not an astrophysicist nor a brain surgeon. SEs are paid well and so have an overinflated self-value. Again, now that this is crashing with WFH. We have code chop shops in India, yet we still try and pretend coding is some modern-day magic language. ninja edit- hit reply b4 finished 2nd edit- reminded me of this [1] infamous That Mitchell and Webb Look sketch =) [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
        kikimora 5y ago
        I used to believe that a good bootcamp can make a developer out of anyone. I changed my mind after trying to teach programming to a couple of people. In all failed cases people was not trained to thing algorithmically, that is being able to pick a piece apart and build a thing out of small parts, all in mind. Like looking at what a single iteration of a loop does and imagining what will be the end result. A person either has this skill and then she can learn on her own even without a teacher. Or she does not have it and then no matter how hard you try to explain Java/Python/JS/etc she does not get it at a very basic level. I do agree that learning how to code is not that hard given that you have certain skills already. But said skills are rare. This might explain why programmers think it is easy to learn programming but we don’t see an influx of skilled developers despite boot camps and online courses available for free. Maybe changing something at an elementary school level would fix the problem. I have no idea how to do it but I know for sure that we need to teach people a certain way of thinking and this is a prerequisite to being a successful programmer. As soon as you have that way of thinking learning Python or Java is a piece of cake. And I absolutely sure that anyone can learn it, we are simply super bad at teaching the right skills to people.
- pjlegato 5y ago
  Rate of pay is empirically determined by the intersection of supply and demand for that job, not by how important a particular person or group thinks a job ought to be considered a priori. Where supply is much larger than demand -- that is, where many people can easily replace the person doing the job and perform similar work -- wages are low. When not many people can do a demanded job, wages are high. Note that I am not making any moral claims about this fact being good or bad; just pointing out that it is indeed an objective fact. This dynamic notably holds true even in non-capitalist economic systems, such as in Communist countries where the rate of pay is legally fixed at the same level for all jobs: people simply barter out of band with non-monetary forms of value transfer (блат) instead, to compensate for the inability to use money to find the supply/demand intersection.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    Supply vs demand works until WFH begins to even the payscale. SEs everywhere started screaming about pay reductions. There is no lack of SWEs, that is now more than apparent. It's simply the flavor of the decade, just like last bubble it was website/graphics design. Bubble is bursting IMO.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      I think the bubble is shearing perhaps. The top wages for SWEs in many markets seem to be going up and substantially so, while the wages for the broad middle of the market in globally high-cost locations aren’t going up and, as you observe, are at risk of falling as/if WFH-driven globalization accelerates.

wccrawford 5y ago

I had intended to keep programming as a hobby, but I had a moment of clarity one day when I realized that was my one skill that I already had that could make lots of money. For the most part, I haven't regretted it, though I was correct that I wouldn't do as much programming in my free time if I did it as a job. It hasn't really mattered, though. The programming I do during my day job is always towards a purpose and usually has a clear goal. I generally find the programming itself quite rewarding, even if I'm often frustrated with the things around it. Now that I'm older, I realize I could also have picked a lot of other jobs and learned them relatively quickly, but I still think I made the right decision. Those other things are now my hobbies.

sokoloff 5y ago
If my house and kids’ college were paid off, I’d happily program for half of the prevailing wages for SWEs in the US. I do it for fun on the side anyway; if you want me to work on your puzzles, you have to pay me, but we’ll both end up happy when you do.

lentil_soup 5y ago

Ok, but it's also possible to have a non-shitty 40hour job

saulpw 5y ago
It's also possible to have a non-shitty tech job. So I hear anyway.

birksherty 5y ago

Because just being able have a pleasant life is a big privilege and most people in the world won't have this ever.