4 ms·

The obvious purpose of removing shoes at airports has long been more about security theater than safety. The authorities must be seen to be doing something to p

by ctrlp 5y ago

The obvious purpose of removing shoes at airports has long been more about security theater than safety. The authorities must be seen to be doing something to protect travelers or the industry might not survive the customer's perception of danger. But, the less obvious reasons surely include maintaining the function of the huge TSA security apparatus put in place after 9/11. The stated function of the TSA is to protect passengers from attack. The unstated (and unacknowledged function) that has perpetuated the practice despite every traveler hating it (and its obvious futility), is to intimidate travelers and provide a convenient mechanism of crowd-control. Step out of line (literally) and you will be treated as a potential criminal. There needn't be an official policy to do so, the benefits of the system ensure its continuance via other (stated) motives, not least the profit motive of the supporting economic interests. The upshot is that travelling via plane in the past 20 years is one of the many small lessons for living in the security/surveillance state. You must obey. Moreover, we see the logic of the security/surveillance state incorporating this convenient control mechanism by now restricting (or implicitly threatening to restrict, which is even better) the travel of domestic antagonists of power. If we had discontinued taking off our shoes, the symbolic effect of dispiriting and weakening the public (literally making us vulnerable in our unshod feet) would be unavailable now. Why would the administration willingly relinquish such a useful tool for managing the population? Of course it wouldn't. It would we more amazing if it had. Now, we will likely add further controls on travel in the form of digital health passports with infinitely more possibility for government mischief. When/if the pandemic ends, do you believe the passports will be discontinued?

cujo 5y ago
> Now, we will likely add further controls on travel in the form of digital health passports with infinitely more possibility for government mischief. How do you see digital health passports as having infinitely more possibility for govt mischief? Right now TSA has the ability to treat you like a criminal if they think you looked at them funny. The health passport "mischief" seems more along the lines of "you don't have vaccine X, so you can't board the plane." While potentially problematic, that's kind of the end of it. It becomes a no-fly list, but one where you can actually control your status on it.
- itchyjunk 5y ago
  Is it under your control? Say you do have the vaccines but get to the airport and find out you are on a no fly list. Is that issue trivially easy to fix? From some of the post I've read here, it's a black box system with very little standard process to help you get out of it. Filing law suite isn't easy[0]. [0] https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/michigan-father-wrongly-placed-no-fly-list-removed-after-aclu-files-lawsuit-his https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/michigan-father-wrongly-...
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    It certainly may be, but it doesn't inherently have to be. Kids need vaccinations to go to school (I mean pre-Wakefield and that blond lady from Playboy who married a Backstreet Boy whose name escapes me), the way you proved it was to show your documents that you got from your doctor.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      Jenny McCarthy?
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  The nature of the informal implementation of this stuff renders it so toothless, enforcement in whatever form we may see will be pretty permeable. The current CDC cards are trivial to print out on basically any laser printer. ("I have a heart condition so I can't", "heres a picture on my phone"). If you don't have a vaccine you probably just will need to have a test and a temp. screening for the most part. However the comparison to TSA is not apt. TSA threat model is: One "terrorist" (though I'd call them "premeditated mass murderers") executing its plan is the total failure. For the vaccine requirements, the threat model is much different. Even if you just don't bother with any of this stuff on %5 of flights, it will still have a great impact in reducing the frequency of aerospace super-spreader events. Sars-CoV-2 infects a lot of people every day, whereas there are many, many days in a row where no terrorists bother to board a domestic flight.
- ctrlp 5y ago
horsawlarway 5y ago
> The unstated (and unacknowledged function) that has perpetuated the practice despite every traveler hating it (and its obvious futility), is to intimidate travelers and provide a convenient mechanism of crowd-control. I think you're misguided here. I certainly do understand the viewpoint that this security theater is harmful (and agree, actually). But lets be honest: The TSA has nothing to do with "Scaring the sheep" and everything to do with "Politically acceptable jobs program". Way too many soldiers coming home from our senseless oversea wars? Great - put them to work "Guarding" our airports. Super convenient that all states have airports that will "need" these jobs, so it's easier to pass than targeted jobs programs that would actually be useful.
- ctrlp 5y ago
  What percentage of TSA employees are former military?
  - Arainach 5y ago
    More than 25% as of 2015. https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/features/2015/12/01/tsa-looks-prior-service-members-fill-ranks https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/features/2015/12/01/tsa-looks...
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    I looked and I can't actually find a good answer to that. I do know that the job requirements are basically: 1. US citizen 2. High school diploma 3. 18+ years old 4. Pass drug/background screening For the pay, the job requirements are very low. They also follow the "Veterans preference" practice during hiring. This is actually pretty typical across many government jobs (See https://www.usajobs.gov/ https://www.usajobs.gov/). My experience with trying to apply to these jobs (admittedly second hand, watching my wife apply to meet grant-related conditions) is that if you're an honorably discharged veteran, your resume goes into bucket #1, and if they can fill the position from that bucket, they won't even look at bucket #2, which is public applications.
- ctrlp 5y ago
  TSA is a manifestation of the totalizing technocratic State and all that that implies. The motivations are manifold and they evolve and are discovered over time; I wouldn't argue that there is only one reason. Being also a 'jobs program' in no way invalidates my point. By the way, shepherds don't scare sheep, wolves do. Shepherds corral sheep. Sheepdogs harass sheep, triggering their herd instincts by raising the specter of the wolf in their minds. Sheepdogs are used by shepherds in order to herd sheep to where the shepherd wants them 'for their own protection' and his use. But to make the point less metaphorically, the intention isn't to scare people, but the effect is to herd people efficiently, by reassuring them through fear. The fear we feel when we have our hands in the air like criminals to be screened is transferred to the fear we assume those who would harm us must feel and we assume the deterrent affects them, too. The dog that nips our heels will surely chase off the wolf. That effect (efficient management) is itself desirable and so the preservation of that effect becomes another motivation of the system.
Craighead 5y ago
What a fantastic example of a superiority complex.
dntrkv 5y ago
> Why would the administration willingly relinquish such a useful tool for managing the population? Who is this administration?
- ctrlp 5y ago
  The State

by ctrlp 5y ago

cujo 5y ago

> Now, we will likely add further controls on travel in the form of digital health passports with infinitely more possibility for government mischief. How do you see digital health passports as having infinitely more possibility for govt mischief? Right now TSA has the ability to treat you like a criminal if they think you looked at them funny. The health passport "mischief" seems more along the lines of "you don't have vaccine X, so you can't board the plane." While potentially problematic, that's kind of the end of it. It becomes a no-fly list, but one where you can actually control your status on it.

itchyjunk 5y ago
Is it under your control? Say you do have the vaccines but get to the airport and find out you are on a no fly list. Is that issue trivially easy to fix? From some of the post I've read here, it's a black box system with very little standard process to help you get out of it. Filing law suite isn't easy[0]. [0] https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/michigan-father-wrongly-placed-no-fly-list-removed-after-aclu-files-lawsuit-his https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/michigan-father-wrongly-...
- pessimizer 5y ago
  It certainly may be, but it doesn't inherently have to be. Kids need vaccinations to go to school (I mean pre-Wakefield and that blond lady from Playboy who married a Backstreet Boy whose name escapes me), the way you proved it was to show your documents that you got from your doctor.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Jenny McCarthy?
cartoonworld 5y ago
The nature of the informal implementation of this stuff renders it so toothless, enforcement in whatever form we may see will be pretty permeable. The current CDC cards are trivial to print out on basically any laser printer. ("I have a heart condition so I can't", "heres a picture on my phone"). If you don't have a vaccine you probably just will need to have a test and a temp. screening for the most part. However the comparison to TSA is not apt. TSA threat model is: One "terrorist" (though I'd call them "premeditated mass murderers") executing its plan is the total failure. For the vaccine requirements, the threat model is much different. Even if you just don't bother with any of this stuff on %5 of flights, it will still have a great impact in reducing the frequency of aerospace super-spreader events. Sars-CoV-2 infects a lot of people every day, whereas there are many, many days in a row where no terrorists bother to board a domestic flight.
ctrlp 5y ago

horsawlarway 5y ago

> The unstated (and unacknowledged function) that has perpetuated the practice despite every traveler hating it (and its obvious futility), is to intimidate travelers and provide a convenient mechanism of crowd-control. I think you're misguided here. I certainly do understand the viewpoint that this security theater is harmful (and agree, actually). But lets be honest: The TSA has nothing to do with "Scaring the sheep" and everything to do with "Politically acceptable jobs program". Way too many soldiers coming home from our senseless oversea wars? Great - put them to work "Guarding" our airports. Super convenient that all states have airports that will "need" these jobs, so it's easier to pass than targeted jobs programs that would actually be useful.

ctrlp 5y ago
What percentage of TSA employees are former military?
- Arainach 5y ago
  More than 25% as of 2015. https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/features/2015/12/01/tsa-looks-prior-service-members-fill-ranks https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/features/2015/12/01/tsa-looks...
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  I looked and I can't actually find a good answer to that. I do know that the job requirements are basically: 1. US citizen 2. High school diploma 3. 18+ years old 4. Pass drug/background screening For the pay, the job requirements are very low. They also follow the "Veterans preference" practice during hiring. This is actually pretty typical across many government jobs (See https://www.usajobs.gov/ https://www.usajobs.gov/). My experience with trying to apply to these jobs (admittedly second hand, watching my wife apply to meet grant-related conditions) is that if you're an honorably discharged veteran, your resume goes into bucket #1, and if they can fill the position from that bucket, they won't even look at bucket #2, which is public applications.
ctrlp 5y ago
TSA is a manifestation of the totalizing technocratic State and all that that implies. The motivations are manifold and they evolve and are discovered over time; I wouldn't argue that there is only one reason. Being also a 'jobs program' in no way invalidates my point. By the way, shepherds don't scare sheep, wolves do. Shepherds corral sheep. Sheepdogs harass sheep, triggering their herd instincts by raising the specter of the wolf in their minds. Sheepdogs are used by shepherds in order to herd sheep to where the shepherd wants them 'for their own protection' and his use. But to make the point less metaphorically, the intention isn't to scare people, but the effect is to herd people efficiently, by reassuring them through fear. The fear we feel when we have our hands in the air like criminals to be screened is transferred to the fear we assume those who would harm us must feel and we assume the deterrent affects them, too. The dog that nips our heels will surely chase off the wolf. That effect (efficient management) is itself desirable and so the preservation of that effect becomes another motivation of the system.

Craighead 5y ago

What a fantastic example of a superiority complex.

dntrkv 5y ago

> Why would the administration willingly relinquish such a useful tool for managing the population? Who is this administration?

ctrlp 5y ago
The State