6 ms·

And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Also the 10000+ souls at the departing an

by GDC7 5y ago

And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It ain't about safety from ill-intentioned people...it's about protecting the POTUS from having to give the order to open fire on an hijacked civilian plane. That's the reason why every administration is so concerned with planes and so lax about trains and buses and cruise ships.

imglorp 5y ago
It's also much easier to get SWAT onto a train or ship or stadium. Airplane over a city has only one option. Oh, and only one of these things will be heading for Congress potentially.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I was very surprised by a recent shooting at Chicago Union Station: Amtrak finds out this murderer on the run is taking a train across the country arriving in Chicago. They don’t tell anyone on the train this, they don’t intercept the train in the middle of the night in a small town - they wait until the guy detrains at one of the busiest stations in the country before chasing him and shooting him. Bizarre. https://abc7chicago.com/union-station-shooting-chicago-shooter-jamar-jason-taylor/10975958/ https://abc7chicago.com/union-station-shooting-chicago-shoot...
anaganisk 5y ago
Duh, all u have to do is increase the speed of the train, and derail of the dead end. /s
UncleDiaz12 5y ago
Cruise ships do search you quite thoroughly before boarding, but they are looking for booze.
justin66 5y ago
> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Plenty of people are harassed by DEA, customs or immigration on Amtrak trains. They don't seem too concerned with terrorism or souls, though.
docdeek 5y ago
Some years ago I wrote a conference paper [0] pointing to the clear difference in security screening for a flight from Lyon to Paris, and the same journey taken by TGV. The train would have more people on board but no screening of passengers, and only a friendly warning that you had to have a ticket to ride the train (in practice, you could buy one on the way or not buy one at all if you got lucky). The ticket could be bought from a machine or counter without ever showing an ID, and anyone could load baggage onto the train even without later boarding. It seemed to me to be an obvious target for a terrorist who wanted to cause some havoc in the French transport sector, and a compelling one now that the flights were so locked down and difficult to board with ill intentions. 0: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1621509 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1621509
- gsnedders 5y ago
  I'm surprised to see you didn't mention the 1983 bombing on board a TGV! That said, there's a lot more (remote, exposed) infrastructure one could target.
mschuster91 5y ago
> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. In trains with a separate locomotive, passengers cannot even get to the driver compartment. In any electrified rail scenario, a runaway/commandeered train can be stopped by removing the power supply and then diverting the train onto catch points. Not to mention that running a red light triggers an automated immediate brake in many rail systems. Of course, breaking into a parked locomotive, starting it and overriding the safety systems (deadman switch, red light detector) is possible, but it requires a lot of training you won't find online, and without the cooperation of someone at the control center all you're going to do is to derail the engine (as usually, there is a catch point switch at the entry of every branch onto the main track, that is by default pointing to the catch point). > Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Agreed, but bomb/poison threat is a risk at every large building. > Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It's incredibly difficult to pull off a fatal attack using a commandeered (cruise) ship as a weapon - wannabe pirates would need to control the entire bridge and the machine room as well as any auxiliary control points (e.g. for guides) that allow a remote shutdown of the engines. And even assuming attackers do gain control of a ship... a ship is slow, and cost guard will intervene if they notice you on a dangerous collision course.
- GDC7 5y ago
  Again your message proves that you think about the people outside the vehicle as A-class citizens and those aboard as B-class citizens. There are 300+ people on a train and 4000+ on a cruise ship, those things don't need to be used as a weapon to cause a very sad day for the whole Nation in terms of human lives lost. Even if the thing is not used as a weapon.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    It is extraordinarily difficult to kill or maim people on land using a ship as a weapon - it will simply run aground, and there are guides aboard on ships big enough to cause damage when they are near the shore, as an additional defensive measure against incompetence and hijackings (insert obligatory Ever Given meme here). For trains, the situation is similar. Even if you manage to bomb a train, it's unlikely to cause a major, deadly disaster. Rail infrastructure is built with the assumption that trains will get out of control, and the industry has nearly 200 years of experience. Trains, ships and airplanes are ineffective weapons that need a lot of knowledge to turn into an actual weapon. A truck is way more effective: easy to acquire, easy to use, and even right in the middle of an attack people will assume that the driver has lost control or has medical issues instead of being a terrorist.
odiroot 5y ago
> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. China takes train security as seriously as the aeroplane security. At least for the high speed trains.
varnaud 5y ago
Thank god. If I can get a train to go from A to B, I usually take the train. You can arrive at the train station 5 minutes before departure and make it to the train. It's just an overall more comfy experience, mostly thanks to the seamless process of getting on it, not having to worry about the water bottle in your backpack and arriving almost directly in the city center with just a few minutes to get off the train and train station. You can't hijack a train or a boat and make it crash wherever you want. I also assume it's much easier to respond to a train or cruise ship hijack and avoid having to kill everyone on board.
- GDC7 5y ago
  > You can't hijack a train or a boat and make it crash wherever you want No, but I am astounded by how you are writing off the 300 people on a train and the 4000 on a ship. You'd be effectively trapped aboard with hijackers who'd not hesitate to off everybody .
ewagsjr 5y ago
So I am not saying you are wrong, but there is the extra circumstance of not being able to fly a train into skyscrapers.
kjkjadksj 5y ago
The most they will do with a train is hit it against another and i bet the speed is capped anyhow to make turns within the system. Much more effective to load a van with bombs and leave it someplace. A plane is a cruise missile in comparison and can destroy anything you point it at.

by GDC7 5y ago

imglorp 5y ago

It's also much easier to get SWAT onto a train or ship or stadium. Airplane over a city has only one option. Oh, and only one of these things will be heading for Congress potentially.

jazzyjackson 5y ago
I was very surprised by a recent shooting at Chicago Union Station: Amtrak finds out this murderer on the run is taking a train across the country arriving in Chicago. They don’t tell anyone on the train this, they don’t intercept the train in the middle of the night in a small town - they wait until the guy detrains at one of the busiest stations in the country before chasing him and shooting him. Bizarre. https://abc7chicago.com/union-station-shooting-chicago-shooter-jamar-jason-taylor/10975958/ https://abc7chicago.com/union-station-shooting-chicago-shoot...

anaganisk 5y ago

Duh, all u have to do is increase the speed of the train, and derail of the dead end. /s

UncleDiaz12 5y ago

Cruise ships do search you quite thoroughly before boarding, but they are looking for booze.

justin66 5y ago

> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Plenty of people are harassed by DEA, customs or immigration on Amtrak trains. They don't seem too concerned with terrorism or souls, though.

docdeek 5y ago

Some years ago I wrote a conference paper [0] pointing to the clear difference in security screening for a flight from Lyon to Paris, and the same journey taken by TGV. The train would have more people on board but no screening of passengers, and only a friendly warning that you had to have a ticket to ride the train (in practice, you could buy one on the way or not buy one at all if you got lucky). The ticket could be bought from a machine or counter without ever showing an ID, and anyone could load baggage onto the train even without later boarding. It seemed to me to be an obvious target for a terrorist who wanted to cause some havoc in the French transport sector, and a compelling one now that the flights were so locked down and difficult to board with ill intentions. 0: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1621509 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1621509

gsnedders 5y ago
I'm surprised to see you didn't mention the 1983 bombing on board a TGV! That said, there's a lot more (remote, exposed) infrastructure one could target.

mschuster91 5y ago

> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. In trains with a separate locomotive, passengers cannot even get to the driver compartment. In any electrified rail scenario, a runaway/commandeered train can be stopped by removing the power supply and then diverting the train onto catch points. Not to mention that running a red light triggers an automated immediate brake in many rail systems. Of course, breaking into a parked locomotive, starting it and overriding the safety systems (deadman switch, red light detector) is possible, but it requires a lot of training you won't find online, and without the cooperation of someone at the control center all you're going to do is to derail the engine (as usually, there is a catch point switch at the entry of every branch onto the main track, that is by default pointing to the catch point). > Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Agreed, but bomb/poison threat is a risk at every large building. > Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It's incredibly difficult to pull off a fatal attack using a commandeered (cruise) ship as a weapon - wannabe pirates would need to control the entire bridge and the machine room as well as any auxiliary control points (e.g. for guides) that allow a remote shutdown of the engines. And even assuming attackers do gain control of a ship... a ship is slow, and cost guard will intervene if they notice you on a dangerous collision course.

GDC7 5y ago
Again your message proves that you think about the people outside the vehicle as A-class citizens and those aboard as B-class citizens. There are 300+ people on a train and 4000+ on a cruise ship, those things don't need to be used as a weapon to cause a very sad day for the whole Nation in terms of human lives lost. Even if the thing is not used as a weapon.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  It is extraordinarily difficult to kill or maim people on land using a ship as a weapon - it will simply run aground, and there are guides aboard on ships big enough to cause damage when they are near the shore, as an additional defensive measure against incompetence and hijackings (insert obligatory Ever Given meme here). For trains, the situation is similar. Even if you manage to bomb a train, it's unlikely to cause a major, deadly disaster. Rail infrastructure is built with the assumption that trains will get out of control, and the industry has nearly 200 years of experience. Trains, ships and airplanes are ineffective weapons that need a lot of knowledge to turn into an actual weapon. A truck is way more effective: easy to acquire, easy to use, and even right in the middle of an attack people will assume that the driver has lost control or has medical issues instead of being a terrorist.

odiroot 5y ago

> And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. China takes train security as seriously as the aeroplane security. At least for the high speed trains.

varnaud 5y ago

Thank god. If I can get a train to go from A to B, I usually take the train. You can arrive at the train station 5 minutes before departure and make it to the train. It's just an overall more comfy experience, mostly thanks to the seamless process of getting on it, not having to worry about the water bottle in your backpack and arriving almost directly in the city center with just a few minutes to get off the train and train station. You can't hijack a train or a boat and make it crash wherever you want. I also assume it's much easier to respond to a train or cruise ship hijack and avoid having to kill everyone on board.

GDC7 5y ago
> You can't hijack a train or a boat and make it crash wherever you want No, but I am astounded by how you are writing off the 300 people on a train and the 4000 on a ship. You'd be effectively trapped aboard with hijackers who'd not hesitate to off everybody .

ewagsjr 5y ago

So I am not saying you are wrong, but there is the extra circumstance of not being able to fly a train into skyscrapers.

kjkjadksj 5y ago

The most they will do with a train is hit it against another and i bet the speed is capped anyhow to make turns within the system. Much more effective to load a van with bombs and leave it someplace. A plane is a cruise missile in comparison and can destroy anything you point it at.