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Yes, and this is why crazy pilots suffering from depression can bury their planes in the ground and nobody can do anything about it. 200 people lost their life

by bambax 5y ago

Yes, and this is why crazy pilots suffering from depression can bury their planes in the ground and nobody can do anything about it. 200 people lost their life in the crash of Germanwings 9525 on March 24, 2015, but this is not classified as a terrorist attack so it doesn't really count for anything. However, it is the direct consequence of the so-called security procedures implemented the world over; those 200 people are victims of "security".

ridaj 5y ago
Source? This is at best an indirect consequence EDIT post downvotes: what I mean is that even without a lock on the cockpit to prevent their copilot from entering, it seems difficult to prevent a determined pilot from crashing a plane.
- tyingq 5y ago
  It's a pretty well known event. The copilot locked the captain out and used the purposefully designed system to also disable the cockpit entry code. Of course the primary cause wasn't the security setup, but it did contribute to the event. "The captain had a code to unlock the door, but the lock's code panel could be disabled from the cockpit controls...The captain then tried to break down the door, but like most cockpit doors made after the September 11 attacks, it had been reinforced to prevent intrusion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
- filleokus 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525#Cause_of_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525#Cause_... > Robin said that when the captain left the cockpit, possibly to use the toilet, Lubitz locked the door, preventing anyone from entering. The captain had a code to unlock the door, but the lock's code panel could be disabled from the cockpit controls. The captain requested re-entry using the intercom; he knocked and then banged on the door, but received no response. The captain then tried to break down the door, but like most cockpit doors made after the September 11 attacks, it had been reinforced to prevent intrusion. This seems like a pretty direct consequence to me. Similar to how an ultra isloated air-gapped environment with only one-way networking[0] would mean that the ops people couldn't easily stop e.g an ransomware attack in its tracks when detected. It's a cost/consequence of having the isolated network in the first place. (If there was some magic code that always opened the cockpit door, then that could be coerced out of someone, yielding the system almost pointless) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network
- atatatat 5y ago
  Our way of life is eroded one indirect cause at a time, regularly thought out by those with more time and resource to dedicate to guessing the result.
Godel_unicode 5y ago
This lead directly to the rule that nobody can be alone in the cockpit. If you're in the front of the plane when a pilot needs to use the toilet you'll see the dance; service cart blocks the aisle, flight attendant goes into the cockpit, then one pilot comes out.
- monkeynotes 5y ago
  To me this sounds like a risk for service cart/flight attendant/exiting pilot being overcome and entry gained to the cockpit. Even better a hijacker knows exactly when the opportunity arises as the service cart will be moved into place indicating the dance is about to start. Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door?
  - refactor_master 5y ago
    > Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door? What’s to stop anyone from murdering anyone anywhere?
    - monkeynotes 5y ago
      My point is that if a pilot is determined to murder suicide a whole plane because he's suicidal there is little you can do realistically.
      - ilammy 5y ago
        That might be true, but there is a difference in causing the deaths of passengers somewhere behind the closed doors by crashing the plane — and dealing with flesh and bone co-pilot right here and now.
  - mgoetzke 5y ago
    Nothing is ever safe though. One can put up obstacles, potentially slow it down to make it less likely though.
kiba 5y ago
The root cause of this is mental illness. Seems to me that one of the fix on a deeper level is to improve mental health services/living condition.
benlumen 5y ago
I don't remember the details, but remember reading that attack wouldn't have worked under US aviation rules, that it took advantage of some EU protocol oversight which was subsequently rectified. Don't quote me on it though.

by bambax 5y ago

ridaj 5y ago

Source? This is at best an indirect consequence EDIT post downvotes: what I mean is that even without a lock on the cockpit to prevent their copilot from entering, it seems difficult to prevent a determined pilot from crashing a plane.

tyingq 5y ago
It's a pretty well known event. The copilot locked the captain out and used the purposefully designed system to also disable the cockpit entry code. Of course the primary cause wasn't the security setup, but it did contribute to the event. "The captain had a code to unlock the door, but the lock's code panel could be disabled from the cockpit controls...The captain then tried to break down the door, but like most cockpit doors made after the September 11 attacks, it had been reinforced to prevent intrusion." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
filleokus 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525#Cause_of_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525#Cause_... > Robin said that when the captain left the cockpit, possibly to use the toilet, Lubitz locked the door, preventing anyone from entering. The captain had a code to unlock the door, but the lock's code panel could be disabled from the cockpit controls. The captain requested re-entry using the intercom; he knocked and then banged on the door, but received no response. The captain then tried to break down the door, but like most cockpit doors made after the September 11 attacks, it had been reinforced to prevent intrusion. This seems like a pretty direct consequence to me. Similar to how an ultra isloated air-gapped environment with only one-way networking[0] would mean that the ops people couldn't easily stop e.g an ransomware attack in its tracks when detected. It's a cost/consequence of having the isolated network in the first place. (If there was some magic code that always opened the cockpit door, then that could be coerced out of someone, yielding the system almost pointless) [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network
atatatat 5y ago
Our way of life is eroded one indirect cause at a time, regularly thought out by those with more time and resource to dedicate to guessing the result.

Godel_unicode 5y ago

This lead directly to the rule that nobody can be alone in the cockpit. If you're in the front of the plane when a pilot needs to use the toilet you'll see the dance; service cart blocks the aisle, flight attendant goes into the cockpit, then one pilot comes out.

monkeynotes 5y ago
To me this sounds like a risk for service cart/flight attendant/exiting pilot being overcome and entry gained to the cockpit. Even better a hijacker knows exactly when the opportunity arises as the service cart will be moved into place indicating the dance is about to start. Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door?
- refactor_master 5y ago
  > Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door? What’s to stop anyone from murdering anyone anywhere?
  - monkeynotes 5y ago
    My point is that if a pilot is determined to murder suicide a whole plane because he's suicidal there is little you can do realistically.
    - ilammy 5y ago
      That might be true, but there is a difference in causing the deaths of passengers somewhere behind the closed doors by crashing the plane — and dealing with flesh and bone co-pilot right here and now.
- mgoetzke 5y ago
  Nothing is ever safe though. One can put up obstacles, potentially slow it down to make it less likely though.

kiba 5y ago

The root cause of this is mental illness. Seems to me that one of the fix on a deeper level is to improve mental health services/living condition.

benlumen 5y ago

I don't remember the details, but remember reading that attack wouldn't have worked under US aviation rules, that it took advantage of some EU protocol oversight which was subsequently rectified. Don't quote me on it though.