6 ms·

To be honest, I find it hard to believe the "it saves water" argument. How do you need 100 liters of water to hand wash 144 items? I can wash up an exquisite d

To be honest, I find it hard to believe the "it saves water" argument. How do you need 100 liters of water to hand wash 144 items? I can wash up an exquisite dinner for six in two tubs of water, that is maybe ten liters tops? (Just make sure to start with the cleaner stuff so your water doesn't get full of chunks of food.) A normal small family dinner is easily washed up in 5 liters of water and one squirt of liquid... In a similar vain you need to use a cotton tote bag thousands of times to beat the environmental impact of plastic bags (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/24/style/cotton-totes-climate-crisis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/24/style/cotton-totes-climat...) and the same goes for your reusable coffee cup (https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2017/07/reusable-or-disposable-which-coffee-cup-has-a-smaller-footprint/ https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2017/07/reusable-or-dis...).

stevewodil 5y ago
>so your water doesn't get full of chunks of food This indicates to me that you are using a literal tub of water to wash the items in, using the same water for all dishes. Kinda gross but besides the point. Most people that hand wash dishes are just letting the faucet run while they wash the dish so that's why it uses so much water, they aren't reusing any water
- steerablesafe 5y ago
  Well, the dishwasher also reuses water, that's how it saves water.
  - jacobmischka 5y ago
    Yes, but it also filters and traps the chunks in the tray that you're supposed to clean.
    - chewbacha 5y ago
      In addition it operates at a higher temperature and pH than hand washing, which is fairly antimicrobial very just detergent and hand-hot temperature.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  it's 100% the norm in the UK to wash dishes in a tub (as opposed to under the tap; dishwashers are common too). You change the water when it gets mucky, but if you've scraped off your solid food & rinsed off sauce residue beforehand, that takes a while.
  - persedes 5y ago
    Dito here in germany (at least in my near family), the dishwasher essentially reuses the same water too to clean after rinsing, you just don't see it hehe. Suds are also not rinsed off in the UK if I recall? That would definitely safe some water too.
- Filligree 5y ago
  That’s why most sinks have two compartments. You wash your dishes in one, then rinse in the other. Do it right and it’s just as efficient as the dishwasher. Still more work, of course.
  - watwut 5y ago
    Definitely not true that most sinks have two compartments. Those are super rare.
    - morsch 5y ago
      Used to be super common around these parts twenty years ago, before dishwashers were ubiquitous.
Leherenn 5y ago
Most people do not hand wash 144 items at once though. If there's only one person with a plate, fork, knife, glass and pan that's roughly 30 wash cycles.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Apparently, it is common practice in some regions to wash dishes under a continuously flowing stream of water from the taps. Practices vary widely by region. Russian seems to favour the "let it flow" practice. Germany and several regions with a history of water shortages and rationing (Australia, South Africa, California) equal or best even the most efficient dishwashing machines. There the usual practice is more like: - Fill wash sink with dishes to be washed. (Excess sit on the counter next to the sink.) - Fill wash sink with hot sudsy water. - Fill rinse sink with cold clear water. - Place drying rack on counter on opposite side of sink to dirty dishes. My preferred workflow is right-to-left for all this. - Let dishes soak in washing-up fluid for a few minutes. - Scrub off any attached food w/ sponge and/or brush. - Move to rinse sink. - Place in drying rack. (This is second-nature to me. Apparently it's a revelation to some.) The washing sink holds about 2 gallons / 8 litres of water. The rinse sink another another 1/2 gallon / 2 litres. And dishes and tableware come out clean. I frequently find myself re-washing what comes out of the dishwasher. There are also items that cannot go through the dishwasher, meaning that there's some hand-washing regardless. My view is that it's ... a wash. Efficient hand-washing is about as efficient as a high-efficiency dishwasher. If hand-washing dishes isn't a chore to you (and/or you live in a small household), it's fine. I also find it far easier to determine what's clean or not, and to put dishes away, from the drying rack than from the dishwasher. Studies from a few years back on the machine-vs-hand discussion. https://slate.com/technology/2008/04/is-it-worth-the-effort-to-wash-your-dishes-by-hand.html https://slate.com/technology/2008/04/is-it-worth-the-effort-... https://web.archive.org/web/20140716153651/http://www.landtechnik.uni-bonn.de/forschung/haushaltstechnik/publikationen/05-03-01-washing-up-behaviour https://web.archive.org/web/20140716153651/http://www.landte...
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Note that the study I'm linking here is all but certainly the one the Gruanaid references. It seems to be the go-to. And it is virtually always hugely misrepresented (as in this particular article). If you're hand-washing in a pre-filled tub using a few litres/gallons of water, you're about as efficient as a dishwashing machine. In my experience it's nearly as fast (loading/unloading are a considerable time factor), cleanliness is far easier to assure, and wear on dishes, glassware, flatware, and cutlery is vastly reduced. (Though you may break more items if you're clumsy.)
morsch 5y ago
A normal small family dinner is easily washed up in 5 liters of water and one squirt of liquid... You can probably fit four of those dinners into a dishwasher and it'll still use only 10l. I agree that the comparison in the article seems exaggerated in the article and more reasonable estimates I can find put dishwashers at double the efficiency. I've read other numbers (e.g. 131 times[1]) for cotton totes -- they're bound to vary since both plastic bags and cotton bags vary widely in their construction and how heavy duty they are. That said I'm sure I have cotton bags that I've used a thousand times and I expect I'll use them another thousand times, at least. [1] https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/mensch/baumwolltaschen-papiertueten-oekobilanz-100.html https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/mensch/baumwolltaschen-papiertuet...
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  A problem with re-usable bags I've found in the US is some people turn them into another fashion item. So they replace them every couple of years. Combined with a once/week grocery run, you're looking at around 100 uses for a half dozen or so bags.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Many of the arguments against reusable bags focus on water and energy costs of natural fibres (surprisingly high), but not on the million-year biohazard waste legacy of plastics. The principle problem with cost-benefit analysis is in determing what costs and benefits to consider, and what values to ascribe to them. Mind that numerous reusable bags are themselves synthetic (nylon or other plastics), which starts splitting differences --- lower energy and water costs, but still presenting the waste-stream hazard.
interestica 5y ago
What would your process be if you had a single sink/tub? In those cases, I think many people just keep the tap on (which is 3+ litres per minute).
- leokennis 5y ago
  First clean of food chunks into the bin. Then fill the tub with hot water + liquid. Then submerge plates etc. one by one while scrubbing them. When clean, put in the dish rack to dry.

stevewodil 5y ago

>so your water doesn't get full of chunks of food This indicates to me that you are using a literal tub of water to wash the items in, using the same water for all dishes. Kinda gross but besides the point. Most people that hand wash dishes are just letting the faucet run while they wash the dish so that's why it uses so much water, they aren't reusing any water

steerablesafe 5y ago
Well, the dishwasher also reuses water, that's how it saves water.
- jacobmischka 5y ago
  Yes, but it also filters and traps the chunks in the tray that you're supposed to clean.
  - chewbacha 5y ago
    In addition it operates at a higher temperature and pH than hand washing, which is fairly antimicrobial very just detergent and hand-hot temperature.
beaconstudios 5y ago
it's 100% the norm in the UK to wash dishes in a tub (as opposed to under the tap; dishwashers are common too). You change the water when it gets mucky, but if you've scraped off your solid food & rinsed off sauce residue beforehand, that takes a while.
- persedes 5y ago
  Dito here in germany (at least in my near family), the dishwasher essentially reuses the same water too to clean after rinsing, you just don't see it hehe. Suds are also not rinsed off in the UK if I recall? That would definitely safe some water too.
Filligree 5y ago
That’s why most sinks have two compartments. You wash your dishes in one, then rinse in the other. Do it right and it’s just as efficient as the dishwasher. Still more work, of course.
- watwut 5y ago
  Definitely not true that most sinks have two compartments. Those are super rare.
  - morsch 5y ago
    Used to be super common around these parts twenty years ago, before dishwashers were ubiquitous.

Leherenn 5y ago

Most people do not hand wash 144 items at once though. If there's only one person with a plate, fork, knife, glass and pan that's roughly 30 wash cycles.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Apparently, it is common practice in some regions to wash dishes under a continuously flowing stream of water from the taps. Practices vary widely by region. Russian seems to favour the "let it flow" practice. Germany and several regions with a history of water shortages and rationing (Australia, South Africa, California) equal or best even the most efficient dishwashing machines. There the usual practice is more like: - Fill wash sink with dishes to be washed. (Excess sit on the counter next to the sink.) - Fill wash sink with hot sudsy water. - Fill rinse sink with cold clear water. - Place drying rack on counter on opposite side of sink to dirty dishes. My preferred workflow is right-to-left for all this. - Let dishes soak in washing-up fluid for a few minutes. - Scrub off any attached food w/ sponge and/or brush. - Move to rinse sink. - Place in drying rack. (This is second-nature to me. Apparently it's a revelation to some.) The washing sink holds about 2 gallons / 8 litres of water. The rinse sink another another 1/2 gallon / 2 litres. And dishes and tableware come out clean. I frequently find myself re-washing what comes out of the dishwasher. There are also items that cannot go through the dishwasher, meaning that there's some hand-washing regardless. My view is that it's ... a wash. Efficient hand-washing is about as efficient as a high-efficiency dishwasher. If hand-washing dishes isn't a chore to you (and/or you live in a small household), it's fine. I also find it far easier to determine what's clean or not, and to put dishes away, from the drying rack than from the dishwasher. Studies from a few years back on the machine-vs-hand discussion. https://slate.com/technology/2008/04/is-it-worth-the-effort-to-wash-your-dishes-by-hand.html https://slate.com/technology/2008/04/is-it-worth-the-effort-... https://web.archive.org/web/20140716153651/http://www.landtechnik.uni-bonn.de/forschung/haushaltstechnik/publikationen/05-03-01-washing-up-behaviour https://web.archive.org/web/20140716153651/http://www.landte...

dredmorbius 5y ago
Note that the study I'm linking here is all but certainly the one the Gruanaid references. It seems to be the go-to. And it is virtually always hugely misrepresented (as in this particular article). If you're hand-washing in a pre-filled tub using a few litres/gallons of water, you're about as efficient as a dishwashing machine. In my experience it's nearly as fast (loading/unloading are a considerable time factor), cleanliness is far easier to assure, and wear on dishes, glassware, flatware, and cutlery is vastly reduced. (Though you may break more items if you're clumsy.)

morsch 5y ago

A normal small family dinner is easily washed up in 5 liters of water and one squirt of liquid... You can probably fit four of those dinners into a dishwasher and it'll still use only 10l. I agree that the comparison in the article seems exaggerated in the article and more reasonable estimates I can find put dishwashers at double the efficiency. I've read other numbers (e.g. 131 times[1]) for cotton totes -- they're bound to vary since both plastic bags and cotton bags vary widely in their construction and how heavy duty they are. That said I'm sure I have cotton bags that I've used a thousand times and I expect I'll use them another thousand times, at least. [1] https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/mensch/baumwolltaschen-papiertueten-oekobilanz-100.html https://www1.wdr.de/wissen/mensch/baumwolltaschen-papiertuet...

bcrosby95 5y ago
A problem with re-usable bags I've found in the US is some people turn them into another fashion item. So they replace them every couple of years. Combined with a once/week grocery run, you're looking at around 100 uses for a half dozen or so bags.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Many of the arguments against reusable bags focus on water and energy costs of natural fibres (surprisingly high), but not on the million-year biohazard waste legacy of plastics. The principle problem with cost-benefit analysis is in determing what costs and benefits to consider, and what values to ascribe to them. Mind that numerous reusable bags are themselves synthetic (nylon or other plastics), which starts splitting differences --- lower energy and water costs, but still presenting the waste-stream hazard.

interestica 5y ago

What would your process be if you had a single sink/tub? In those cases, I think many people just keep the tap on (which is 3+ litres per minute).

leokennis 5y ago
First clean of food chunks into the bin. Then fill the tub with hot water + liquid. Then submerge plates etc. one by one while scrubbing them. When clean, put in the dish rack to dry.