4 ms·

To say 0% of people suffer some undefined consequence is about as honest as saying 50% of people suffer some undefined consequence. 2 morons dont add up to mak

To say 0% of people suffer some undefined consequence is about as honest as saying 50% of people suffer some undefined consequence. 2 morons dont add up to make an intelligent person.

tinus_hn 5y ago
That’s fine, as long as you agree that ‘Long Covid’ is an undefined condition so it has no place in any scientific discussion, and at least part of the symptoms it is popularly claimed to include, specifically some debilitating form of lung damage, does not occur in the large majority of cases. It doesn’t occur in the short term and subsequently it doesn’t occur in the long term.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  I disagree 100%. >as long as you agree that ‘Long Covid’ is an undefined condition so it has no place in any scientific discussion. 'Long covid' being the effects on a human subsequent to having covid. You are saying that there is no place in scientific discussion for 'the effects, be they some or none of X'. So PTSD - no place in a scientific discussion? Secondary cancer - no place in a scientific discussion? Effects of release of radiaion at Chernobyl - no place in scientific discussion? Effects of hobbling around after stubbing my toe on a bedpost - no place in a scientifci discussion? > specifically some debilitating form of lung damage, does not occur in the large majority of cases. So you mean, the results from the scientific discussion, which you believe is illegitamte, because 'it has no place in any scientific discussion' support this statement? Which one is it, its science or it cant possibly be science? If I am not allowed to explore a hypotheseis, then I can not say it does or does not occur.
  - Closi 5y ago
    Although you are of course correct that it is defined as post-covid exposure, I guess their more general point is that we don't talk about things like 'Long Flu', 'Long Cancer' or 'Long Diarrhoea' as a particular 'illness'. Instead we generally talk about specific symptoms after recovery from these things (e.g. We would say there are long-term effects of cancer and that specific person has Post Cancer Fatigue, rather than just saying someone has 'long cancer'), or specific effects that the illness has (e.g. impact of severe childhood diohreah on growth) which seems more useful than bundling it all together into one 'thing' which covers completely different impacts (e.g. long term taste loss, tinnitus and fatigue). Just calling it long covid seems to make it seem like something special/different, while in reality plenty of illnesses have long term health impacts and ongoing symptoms. It doesn't mean that there isn't cause for concern - but I don't necessarily see why we should make the language of Covid different to other illnesses (other than for PR purposes).
    - shapefrog 5y ago
      So your problem is branding related. You dont like the logo or theme music? We dont call it 'Long Cancer' meme is a really fascinating one. You are right, we don't call it exactly that. The long term effects of cancer, which really would span such an enormous range of things collectively are known, to use the technical term, as 'The long term effects of cancer'. When you get diagnosed with cancer, you 'have Cancer'. When you are 100% free from cancer you are still a cancer patient but its said to be 'in remission', and would likely not be considered 'Cured' of your cancer for many years. But why do we use that language, when I have the sniffles and they go away I am 'cured'. It is almost like the english language has room for more than one adjective, What other language is in use - conditions can be called 'Chronic illnesses'. It turns out sometimes it is useful to bundle things together into 'Syndromes', a bit like that Gulf War Syndrome. Now personally I believe that how 'scary' or 'special' a sequence of words are, which is your main argument against the word 'Long', is subjective. Personally 'long' doesnt instill me with fear in particular, but lets try on some alternative brandings that are more in line with other illnesses are you helpfully suggest size shall we. Chronic Covid, In remission Covid, Covid Syndrome, Post Covid Lung Failure. Covid Syndrome seems the obvious choice really. It is the most consistent with medical language used to date, as such could not possibly be described as being thrown around for PR purpopses or just out right fear mongering.
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        > Covid Syndrome seems the obvious choice really. Covid Syndrome on one hand would be great because a syndrome specifically means a set of symptoms appearing. So that would by definition at least require an agreed upon list of conditions that comprise it. On the other hand it would not be great because it doesn’t specify the cause so Covid would be a specific virus, but Covid Syndrome would just be a bunch of conditions that are not necessarily related to that virus. People get shortness of breath all the time.
      - Closi 5y ago
        > So your problem is branding related. You dont like the logo or theme music? That's one of my issues, I think the words we use are important. > When you are 100% free from cancer you are still a cancer patient but its said to be 'in remission'. Actually, the term "in remission" is used because the signs and symptoms might have disappeared, but cancer may still be in the body. It means cancer has not been found, and that there is no evidence of disease, however due to the nature of the disease you can't be sure that the cancer has been 'cured' (i.e. gone) because it still might be in the body even though there is no sign of disease. When you are 100% free of cancer you are said to be cured, however as this can not be known, some doctors say you are "cured" after 5 years of complete remission, because that gives a sufficient degree of certainty that the cancer is gone. > It is the most consistent with medical language used to date, as such could not possibly be described as being thrown around for PR purpopses or just out right fear mongering. It might be an improvement, although personally I think the main issue is bundling it all together is misleading, as you bundle the extreme cases with the less-severe ones. If 1% of people have 'long covid' there is a big difference between 0.9% of people having a slightly reduced sense of taste after 12 weeks which recovers after 6 months and 0.1% of people having chronic fatigue forever, and visa-versa. The bundling together as a singular 'Long Covid' I personally think is an intentional language tactic increase compliance to rules IMO.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    You are confusing the fabled and undefined Long Covid that depending on what you want to argue can be made out to encompass just about anything, and the specific issue of lung damage this article is about. Talking about narrowly defined specific things is scientific. Musing about something that has no useful definition and drawing conclusions from that is pseudoscience. > 'the effects, be they some or none of X' Whether there are effects or not and what they are is science. But not defining the effects and then stating they appear in half of the cases is useless and not science. Just to keep it practical, people say ‘I know this one guy and he got covid and it was terrible for a long time’. So that’s the image that’s conjured up for Long Covid. And then on the other side there’s what you describe, Long Covid is just any complaint people have after contracting covid, from lung damage to occasional slight headaches, you know, the things that are in the list of side effects for every type of medicine on the planet. Next is the claim that a large amount of people get these extremely slight side effects. Now because there is no scientifically useful definition of Long Covid, this large amount of people that get slight side effects is confused with the original image of the terrible Long Covid. Ultimately it seems like a very large proportion of the people that get covid will develop debilitating lung problems. But the reality is that that is just not the case because a very large amount of people have already been infected and while yes there are a lot of people with serious problems, they are still a small minority. It does fit the narrative quite nicely of scaring a lot of people into taking the vaccinations, wearing the masks, whatever measure you want to sell. But it’s not science and in the long run it just devalues real science and fosters skepticism and conspiracy theories. Because ultimately everyone can just clearly see that not half of the people they know has developed these terrible symptoms.
    - shapefrog 5y ago
      I am not at all confused. I am well aware of the contents of the article, and that the article never mentions specifically the combination of characters known as 'Long Covid'. I responded specifically to your unreferenced statement of a supposed fact (that there is a claim) 'half of the people that get infected get Long Covid'. Your claim that this is either the case or being claimed to be the case is entirely baseless. > people say ‘I know this one guy and he got covid and it was terrible for a long time’. So that’s the image that’s conjured up for Long Covid. I have never once heard that, and my reaction to that scenario, is that the guy had covid. Long covid did not enter my thoughts, the image you have conjured here is of someone fighting an active infection. It sounds like they were in hospital for a long time. Hopefully that friend is better now. > Long Covid is just any complaint people have after contracting covid, from lung damage to occasional slight headaches, you know, the things that are in the list of side effects for every type of medicine on the planet You know how if you get shot, you often bleed. Well its not like that is unique to being shot, if you cut yourself you will also bleed. > Now because there is no scientifically useful definition of Long Covid The Long term Effects of infection with COVID. > Whether there are effects or not and what they are is science. > But it’s not science. For a while I thought we had come to an agreement on what science was.

To say 0% of people suffer some undefined consequence is about as honest as saying 50% of people suffer some undefined consequence. 2 morons dont add up to make an intelligent person.

tinus_hn 5y ago

That’s fine, as long as you agree that ‘Long Covid’ is an undefined condition so it has no place in any scientific discussion, and at least part of the symptoms it is popularly claimed to include, specifically some debilitating form of lung damage, does not occur in the large majority of cases. It doesn’t occur in the short term and subsequently it doesn’t occur in the long term.

shapefrog 5y ago
I disagree 100%. >as long as you agree that ‘Long Covid’ is an undefined condition so it has no place in any scientific discussion. 'Long covid' being the effects on a human subsequent to having covid. You are saying that there is no place in scientific discussion for 'the effects, be they some or none of X'. So PTSD - no place in a scientific discussion? Secondary cancer - no place in a scientific discussion? Effects of release of radiaion at Chernobyl - no place in scientific discussion? Effects of hobbling around after stubbing my toe on a bedpost - no place in a scientifci discussion? > specifically some debilitating form of lung damage, does not occur in the large majority of cases. So you mean, the results from the scientific discussion, which you believe is illegitamte, because 'it has no place in any scientific discussion' support this statement? Which one is it, its science or it cant possibly be science? If I am not allowed to explore a hypotheseis, then I can not say it does or does not occur.
- Closi 5y ago
  Although you are of course correct that it is defined as post-covid exposure, I guess their more general point is that we don't talk about things like 'Long Flu', 'Long Cancer' or 'Long Diarrhoea' as a particular 'illness'. Instead we generally talk about specific symptoms after recovery from these things (e.g. We would say there are long-term effects of cancer and that specific person has Post Cancer Fatigue, rather than just saying someone has 'long cancer'), or specific effects that the illness has (e.g. impact of severe childhood diohreah on growth) which seems more useful than bundling it all together into one 'thing' which covers completely different impacts (e.g. long term taste loss, tinnitus and fatigue). Just calling it long covid seems to make it seem like something special/different, while in reality plenty of illnesses have long term health impacts and ongoing symptoms. It doesn't mean that there isn't cause for concern - but I don't necessarily see why we should make the language of Covid different to other illnesses (other than for PR purposes).
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    So your problem is branding related. You dont like the logo or theme music? We dont call it 'Long Cancer' meme is a really fascinating one. You are right, we don't call it exactly that. The long term effects of cancer, which really would span such an enormous range of things collectively are known, to use the technical term, as 'The long term effects of cancer'. When you get diagnosed with cancer, you 'have Cancer'. When you are 100% free from cancer you are still a cancer patient but its said to be 'in remission', and would likely not be considered 'Cured' of your cancer for many years. But why do we use that language, when I have the sniffles and they go away I am 'cured'. It is almost like the english language has room for more than one adjective, What other language is in use - conditions can be called 'Chronic illnesses'. It turns out sometimes it is useful to bundle things together into 'Syndromes', a bit like that Gulf War Syndrome. Now personally I believe that how 'scary' or 'special' a sequence of words are, which is your main argument against the word 'Long', is subjective. Personally 'long' doesnt instill me with fear in particular, but lets try on some alternative brandings that are more in line with other illnesses are you helpfully suggest size shall we. Chronic Covid, In remission Covid, Covid Syndrome, Post Covid Lung Failure. Covid Syndrome seems the obvious choice really. It is the most consistent with medical language used to date, as such could not possibly be described as being thrown around for PR purpopses or just out right fear mongering.
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      > Covid Syndrome seems the obvious choice really. Covid Syndrome on one hand would be great because a syndrome specifically means a set of symptoms appearing. So that would by definition at least require an agreed upon list of conditions that comprise it. On the other hand it would not be great because it doesn’t specify the cause so Covid would be a specific virus, but Covid Syndrome would just be a bunch of conditions that are not necessarily related to that virus. People get shortness of breath all the time.
    - Closi 5y ago
      > So your problem is branding related. You dont like the logo or theme music? That's one of my issues, I think the words we use are important. > When you are 100% free from cancer you are still a cancer patient but its said to be 'in remission'. Actually, the term "in remission" is used because the signs and symptoms might have disappeared, but cancer may still be in the body. It means cancer has not been found, and that there is no evidence of disease, however due to the nature of the disease you can't be sure that the cancer has been 'cured' (i.e. gone) because it still might be in the body even though there is no sign of disease. When you are 100% free of cancer you are said to be cured, however as this can not be known, some doctors say you are "cured" after 5 years of complete remission, because that gives a sufficient degree of certainty that the cancer is gone. > It is the most consistent with medical language used to date, as such could not possibly be described as being thrown around for PR purpopses or just out right fear mongering. It might be an improvement, although personally I think the main issue is bundling it all together is misleading, as you bundle the extreme cases with the less-severe ones. If 1% of people have 'long covid' there is a big difference between 0.9% of people having a slightly reduced sense of taste after 12 weeks which recovers after 6 months and 0.1% of people having chronic fatigue forever, and visa-versa. The bundling together as a singular 'Long Covid' I personally think is an intentional language tactic increase compliance to rules IMO.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  You are confusing the fabled and undefined Long Covid that depending on what you want to argue can be made out to encompass just about anything, and the specific issue of lung damage this article is about. Talking about narrowly defined specific things is scientific. Musing about something that has no useful definition and drawing conclusions from that is pseudoscience. > 'the effects, be they some or none of X' Whether there are effects or not and what they are is science. But not defining the effects and then stating they appear in half of the cases is useless and not science. Just to keep it practical, people say ‘I know this one guy and he got covid and it was terrible for a long time’. So that’s the image that’s conjured up for Long Covid. And then on the other side there’s what you describe, Long Covid is just any complaint people have after contracting covid, from lung damage to occasional slight headaches, you know, the things that are in the list of side effects for every type of medicine on the planet. Next is the claim that a large amount of people get these extremely slight side effects. Now because there is no scientifically useful definition of Long Covid, this large amount of people that get slight side effects is confused with the original image of the terrible Long Covid. Ultimately it seems like a very large proportion of the people that get covid will develop debilitating lung problems. But the reality is that that is just not the case because a very large amount of people have already been infected and while yes there are a lot of people with serious problems, they are still a small minority. It does fit the narrative quite nicely of scaring a lot of people into taking the vaccinations, wearing the masks, whatever measure you want to sell. But it’s not science and in the long run it just devalues real science and fosters skepticism and conspiracy theories. Because ultimately everyone can just clearly see that not half of the people they know has developed these terrible symptoms.
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    I am not at all confused. I am well aware of the contents of the article, and that the article never mentions specifically the combination of characters known as 'Long Covid'. I responded specifically to your unreferenced statement of a supposed fact (that there is a claim) 'half of the people that get infected get Long Covid'. Your claim that this is either the case or being claimed to be the case is entirely baseless. > people say ‘I know this one guy and he got covid and it was terrible for a long time’. So that’s the image that’s conjured up for Long Covid. I have never once heard that, and my reaction to that scenario, is that the guy had covid. Long covid did not enter my thoughts, the image you have conjured here is of someone fighting an active infection. It sounds like they were in hospital for a long time. Hopefully that friend is better now. > Long Covid is just any complaint people have after contracting covid, from lung damage to occasional slight headaches, you know, the things that are in the list of side effects for every type of medicine on the planet You know how if you get shot, you often bleed. Well its not like that is unique to being shot, if you cut yourself you will also bleed. > Now because there is no scientifically useful definition of Long Covid The Long term Effects of infection with COVID. > Whether there are effects or not and what they are is science. > But it’s not science. For a while I thought we had come to an agreement on what science was.