4 ms·

The right to bear arms also seems to fit your framework quite well. If the police knocking on your door has to fear that you appear naked that is unpleasent but

The right to bear arms also seems to fit your framework quite well. If the police knocking on your door has to fear that you appear naked that is unpleasent but merely a nuisance. If you could be armed they will probably think twice if it is worth the risk.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
I think in practice (from the US) they come in with 10 people, guns drawn, in bulletproof vests ready to fire at anything moving just in case which leads to unfortunate deaths which is why 'Swatting' is so dangerous in the US
- Clubber 5y ago
  They also murder unarmed people with a frequency I'm not comfortable with, so any argument that guns is what makes the police trigger happy has plenty of counter examples of clearly unarmed people getting killed.
  - amcoastal 5y ago
    Yeah but they always think they have a gun, or so they say. It's not always having a gun pointed at you, it's the threat that it could happen. Very real to American police that keep them on edge, where in other countries that risk is lower so there is less sensitivity to a suspect moving there arm near a pocket or behind their back if they are far away from the officer (which makes it naturally harder to see what they are going for). Not saying it's a good thing, it's just a large contributing factor.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      There was recently a video of US police attacking a lady in a wheel chair with a stun gun because she was filming them detaining and being rough with her pregnant daughter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piU6_8y61Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piU6_8y61Q Here's a recent video of a cop throwing a woman to the cement who was in a fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCKu-0oAaOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCKu-0oAaOk Here's a compilation of nearly 1000 incidents of police brutalizing BLM protestors and reporters. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/29/us-police-brutality-protest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/29/us-police-br... In these incidents the victim was clearly either unarmed or in no way was threatening the police with a firearm. I think that is just yet another excuse the police use to evade prosecution when brutalizing citizens. This is nothing new, here's the police brutalizing citizens protesting in Chicago in 1968. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XzdltsTfvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XzdltsTfvE
xvector 5y ago
And this is the foundation of the Second Amendment despite the intense opposition to it. The Second Amendment creates lines that even the government will be unwilling to cross.
- Mordisquitos 5y ago
  And yet government agents shooting unsuspecting non-criminals in their own home, after mistaking the address or responding to a malicious fake emergency call, is a line that is only crossed in the country with the Second Amendment.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Yeah, plus they're practically the only country that hasn't had serious government threatening civil unrest for 160 years and they still brag about guns. Heck, the only real recent unrest of that magnitude, the takeover of Capitol, was without guns as far as I remember. As in, no standoff.
    - krapp 5y ago
      >Heck, the only real recent unrest of that magnitude, the takeover of Capitol, was without guns as far as I remember. As in, no standoff. Condescending to other countries with smug quips by the American founding fathers turns out to be much easier than taking those principles seriously on your own soil when facing the prospect of armed Federal police.
    - modo_mario 5y ago
      >Yeah, plus they're practically the only country that hasn't had serious government threatening civil unrest for 160 years and they still brag about guns. There was that miners strike which got bombed.
      - oblio 5y ago
        Do you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army Or something else? I guess that's the closest thing that would qualify. But compared to the anti-government protests that have probably happened in half the countries in the world during the same time period, it's peanuts. Example from Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932019_Romanian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932019_Romanian_pro... Half a million people protesting out of ~18 million or so. For reference, that would mean 10 million people protesting at the same time in the US. I wonder if even the civil rights movement during the 60's ever got that many people out on the streets at the exact same time.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

I think in practice (from the US) they come in with 10 people, guns drawn, in bulletproof vests ready to fire at anything moving just in case which leads to unfortunate deaths which is why 'Swatting' is so dangerous in the US

Clubber 5y ago
They also murder unarmed people with a frequency I'm not comfortable with, so any argument that guns is what makes the police trigger happy has plenty of counter examples of clearly unarmed people getting killed.
- amcoastal 5y ago
  Yeah but they always think they have a gun, or so they say. It's not always having a gun pointed at you, it's the threat that it could happen. Very real to American police that keep them on edge, where in other countries that risk is lower so there is less sensitivity to a suspect moving there arm near a pocket or behind their back if they are far away from the officer (which makes it naturally harder to see what they are going for). Not saying it's a good thing, it's just a large contributing factor.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    There was recently a video of US police attacking a lady in a wheel chair with a stun gun because she was filming them detaining and being rough with her pregnant daughter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piU6_8y61Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9piU6_8y61Q Here's a recent video of a cop throwing a woman to the cement who was in a fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCKu-0oAaOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCKu-0oAaOk Here's a compilation of nearly 1000 incidents of police brutalizing BLM protestors and reporters. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/29/us-police-brutality-protest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/29/us-police-br... In these incidents the victim was clearly either unarmed or in no way was threatening the police with a firearm. I think that is just yet another excuse the police use to evade prosecution when brutalizing citizens. This is nothing new, here's the police brutalizing citizens protesting in Chicago in 1968. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XzdltsTfvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XzdltsTfvE

xvector 5y ago

And this is the foundation of the Second Amendment despite the intense opposition to it. The Second Amendment creates lines that even the government will be unwilling to cross.

Mordisquitos 5y ago
And yet government agents shooting unsuspecting non-criminals in their own home, after mistaking the address or responding to a malicious fake emergency call, is a line that is only crossed in the country with the Second Amendment.
- oblio 5y ago
  Yeah, plus they're practically the only country that hasn't had serious government threatening civil unrest for 160 years and they still brag about guns. Heck, the only real recent unrest of that magnitude, the takeover of Capitol, was without guns as far as I remember. As in, no standoff.
  - krapp 5y ago
    >Heck, the only real recent unrest of that magnitude, the takeover of Capitol, was without guns as far as I remember. As in, no standoff. Condescending to other countries with smug quips by the American founding fathers turns out to be much easier than taking those principles seriously on your own soil when facing the prospect of armed Federal police.
  - modo_mario 5y ago
    >Yeah, plus they're practically the only country that hasn't had serious government threatening civil unrest for 160 years and they still brag about guns. There was that miners strike which got bombed.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Do you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army Or something else? I guess that's the closest thing that would qualify. But compared to the anti-government protests that have probably happened in half the countries in the world during the same time period, it's peanuts. Example from Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932019_Romanian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932019_Romanian_pro... Half a million people protesting out of ~18 million or so. For reference, that would mean 10 million people protesting at the same time in the US. I wonder if even the civil rights movement during the 60's ever got that many people out on the streets at the exact same time.