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By and large what “isn’t allowed” on major tech platforms is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. You can still find a lot of non-PC, fringe content on Y

By and large what “isn’t allowed” on major tech platforms is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. You can still find a lot of non-PC, fringe content on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter and Reddit. I get that censorship in major tech platforms is problematic, but the sense of martyrdom in comments like yours feels a little overwrought.

guerrilla 5y ago
Nope. https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-that-support-crimethinccom-and-the-digital-censorship-to-come https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-... And now we've moved on to "misinformation" which has no real definition other than being mitigated by so-called fact checkers who mostly work for American for-profit newspapers.
- reginold 5y ago
  First slow, then all of a sudden. Seems like the move to decentralized platforms may come quickly. I wonder what the precipitating event will be. Any speculation?
reginold 5y ago
What would you say if you were truly anonymous?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  nothing I wouldn't say when I'm not. Are you under the impression everyone is secretly homophobic or throws the n-word around when nobody can see them? If I'd be too ashamed to say something if my name is attached to it I wouldn't say it when it isn't. you need to be far gone to manage to get yourself kicked off Facebook.
  - reginold 5y ago
    In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.
- iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
  Same things I'd normally say because I know anonymous posts on the internet are a terrible medium for rational discussion on controversial subjects. I've sworn off arguing anything with anyone on the internet. More censorship = less content on social media, which is a good thing for humanity.
  - reginold 5y ago
    Fascinating. So anonymity brings limitations for you over what you would "normally say". Why post here then under a pseudonym?
    - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
      Me doxing myself in an anonymous forum doesn't make discussion any better if everyone else is anonymous. It just opens me up to real life attacks. Plus, honestly non-anonymous discussion of controversial subjects might actually be worse. You still get maximally aggressive interpretation, but you actually know each other so you can lose real friends. Discussing anything on the internet that makes anyone feel emotional is just a bad thing no matter how you do it. That's why I'm completely fine with censoring anyone with violent views I disagree with. Get them off the internet first, then maybe someday everyone else will get off too. Also I'm aware I'm being a hypocrite right now just by responding here. I'm supposed to be working. Like I said, the internet is just bad and my hypocrisy is proof of it.
      - reginold 5y ago
        I love the internet :) Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This chunk of the thread has some thought provoking responses. You've never opened up a journal or text document and written gleefully knowing no one else could ever read what you wrote?
        reginold 5y ago
        fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork
- cortic 5y ago
  That's a really great question; There are important conversations within the LGBT that would be really interesting, but asking questions that could be construed years later as homophobic, no matter now innocent can publicly destroy people. I'd love to have a discussion breaking down certain ideologies, including the merits as well as demerits of certain controversial groups. But this could actually cross into criminal in the UK with the interpretation of some laws. And certainly come back to haunt me years later publicly.
  - reginold 5y ago
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Can you imagine the raw curiosity and interest we could unleash? Seems like incredible potential. On the flip side, we have the ability for systems to mine through words and sentence structure and identify commonalities. Perhaps there's like an "on screen keyboard" for conveying meaning without giving up your specific grammar patterns. This kind of editing is so costly for the human race :(
  - iaml 5y ago
    Contrary to popular opinion that such conversations are censored to death on popular media, there are still discussions like that happening on reddit, for example in subreddits like /r/changemyview or /r/unpopularopinion. It's just that people asking such questions usually either don't even try phrasing them politely and detached from personalities, or are based on incorrect or incomplete data.
cortic 5y ago
The definition of what is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic is different from person to person, mod to mod. There are plenty of rational opinions within controversial topics that are just not allowed. This is compounded with the problem of social media that don't allow anonymity, as laws in some western countries actually criminalize rudeness.
- reginold 5y ago
  Yes, but crazy you have to come out and say this. Limiting speech means there are plenty of rational opinions we would otherwise miss, options, solutions. It reminds me of that NASA satellite caught throwing away useful data at the system level. If you start editing deeper and deeper eventually you start to throw out important solutions. We need to keep the solution space as big as possible.
busymom0 5y ago
> By and large what “isn’t allowed” on major tech platforms is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. That's such a naive and ignorant viewpoint. Everything which one doesn't agree with suddenly doesn't become racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. Post from an hour ago: > Somali feminist: Facebook is being used to silence me https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28452991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28452991 Another one from 2 months ago: > The blackout Palestinians are facing on social media: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27645282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27645282 From yesterday: > The Linux Experiments YouTube channel has been terminated https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28443244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28443244 Facebook and IG also banned the mother of one of the soldiers who died in Afghanistan last week. Even women who are against biological men competing in their sports are getting silenced under the label of "transphobia." One only get to understand what censorship feels like when it comes for them.
- reginold 5y ago
  Thanks for saying this with examples. People sure seem to be afraid of their own thoughts if they feel the need to limit speech of others. Must be a hard way to live. And certainly makes life hard for your examples.
- DoctorOW 5y ago
  These are all from big corporate entities either making (admittedly terrible) mistakes, or using the precedent of those mistakes to hide. These are problems systemically fixed by having human moderators not dependent on ad revenue. > One only get to understand what censorship feels like when it comes for them. This looks like you were starting to write "First they came for the" and then realized the next word was "socialists".
  - busymom0 5y ago
    They already are coming for anti establishment socialists- Jimmy Dore, Glenn Greenwald etc for example. Anti establishment Tulsi Gabbard got her ad campaign censored too. Right now it just happens to be the case that majority of the censorship is happening on the right but that’s not to mean that anti establishment voices on the left aren’t getting censored.
yarcob 5y ago
The problem isn't only with being outright blocked, the problem is also that some topics trigger immediate outrage and can't be discussed openly. For example, try talking about a need for safe spaces for X, and you will immediately get abuse from random strangers complaining that you aren't thinking about Y. Or try saying anything about treatment Z side effects. You'll be downvoted and insulted for not sufficiently trusting the science. Some discussions just work better in a less open, moderated forum, where people will try to engage with you, rather than having an angry internet mob materialize out of thin air whenever their trigger topic is mentioned.
kypro 5y ago
Are you even paying attention? This isn't true. You can be censored from social media for all sorts these days. This last year we had a UK media organisation banned from YouTube for questioning the UK COVID response. People in the US are no longer allowed to question the legitimacy of their elections on most social media platforms. Even US media outlets like the NYPost were censored for running stories Twitter didn't like during the US election. Yeah, sure you can be banned for questioning if an untransitioned man wearing a wig is really a women, but this isn't what most people are concerned about. The censorship has now gone far further and in many cases to simply disagree with mainstream narrative on some politically charged subject will be enough to have you removed. One of my favour YouTubers "Mouthy Buddha" was banned for making some videos about Epstein and paedophilia -- the guy produced "conspiracy" content but it's really high quality stuff with no hate at all. I mean even the US president was banned for "violence" despite asking rioters to go home, being acquitted and the FBI finding that there was no coordinated insurrection plan. I'm not coming at this from any political position. A lot of content social media platforms censor I don't like, but that doesn't mean I think it should be censored. Things like racism have been deliberately defined in a very loose way that practically anything can now be considered racist and used as an excuse to censor. A popular comedian in the UK got banned during the world cup for saying, "all I'm saying is, the white guys scored". He was mocking how the UK media had been running stories for weeks about how the "diversity" of the England team is what made them great, but that wasn't allowed because "racism".
- M2Ys4U 5y ago
  >I'm not coming at this from any political position. Saying that after your previous paragraphs doesn't erase the political content of that previous paragraphs.
  - kypro 5y ago
    I meant more in the sense of classical left/right divide -- I felt the parent commenter was suggesting it's just right-wing troll types that are being censored, which isn't the case. I'm definitely in favour of free-speech, I'm just not particularly left or right wing in my political views or voting habits.

guerrilla 5y ago

Nope. https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-that-support-crimethinccom-and-the-digital-censorship-to-come https://crimethinc.com/2020/08/19/on-facebook-banning-pages-... And now we've moved on to "misinformation" which has no real definition other than being mitigated by so-called fact checkers who mostly work for American for-profit newspapers.

reginold 5y ago
First slow, then all of a sudden. Seems like the move to decentralized platforms may come quickly. I wonder what the precipitating event will be. Any speculation?

reginold 5y ago

What would you say if you were truly anonymous?

Barrin92 5y ago
nothing I wouldn't say when I'm not. Are you under the impression everyone is secretly homophobic or throws the n-word around when nobody can see them? If I'd be too ashamed to say something if my name is attached to it I wouldn't say it when it isn't. you need to be far gone to manage to get yourself kicked off Facebook.
- reginold 5y ago
  In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.
iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
Same things I'd normally say because I know anonymous posts on the internet are a terrible medium for rational discussion on controversial subjects. I've sworn off arguing anything with anyone on the internet. More censorship = less content on social media, which is a good thing for humanity.
- reginold 5y ago
  Fascinating. So anonymity brings limitations for you over what you would "normally say". Why post here then under a pseudonym?
  - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
    Me doxing myself in an anonymous forum doesn't make discussion any better if everyone else is anonymous. It just opens me up to real life attacks. Plus, honestly non-anonymous discussion of controversial subjects might actually be worse. You still get maximally aggressive interpretation, but you actually know each other so you can lose real friends. Discussing anything on the internet that makes anyone feel emotional is just a bad thing no matter how you do it. That's why I'm completely fine with censoring anyone with violent views I disagree with. Get them off the internet first, then maybe someday everyone else will get off too. Also I'm aware I'm being a hypocrite right now just by responding here. I'm supposed to be working. Like I said, the internet is just bad and my hypocrisy is proof of it.
    - reginold 5y ago
      I love the internet :) Thanks for the thoughtful reply. This chunk of the thread has some thought provoking responses. You've never opened up a journal or text document and written gleefully knowing no one else could ever read what you wrote?
      - reginold 5y ago
        fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork fork
cortic 5y ago
That's a really great question; There are important conversations within the LGBT that would be really interesting, but asking questions that could be construed years later as homophobic, no matter now innocent can publicly destroy people. I'd love to have a discussion breaking down certain ideologies, including the merits as well as demerits of certain controversial groups. But this could actually cross into criminal in the UK with the interpretation of some laws. And certainly come back to haunt me years later publicly.
- reginold 5y ago
  Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Can you imagine the raw curiosity and interest we could unleash? Seems like incredible potential. On the flip side, we have the ability for systems to mine through words and sentence structure and identify commonalities. Perhaps there's like an "on screen keyboard" for conveying meaning without giving up your specific grammar patterns. This kind of editing is so costly for the human race :(
- iaml 5y ago
  Contrary to popular opinion that such conversations are censored to death on popular media, there are still discussions like that happening on reddit, for example in subreddits like /r/changemyview or /r/unpopularopinion. It's just that people asking such questions usually either don't even try phrasing them politely and detached from personalities, or are based on incorrect or incomplete data.

cortic 5y ago

The definition of what is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic is different from person to person, mod to mod. There are plenty of rational opinions within controversial topics that are just not allowed. This is compounded with the problem of social media that don't allow anonymity, as laws in some western countries actually criminalize rudeness.

reginold 5y ago
Yes, but crazy you have to come out and say this. Limiting speech means there are plenty of rational opinions we would otherwise miss, options, solutions. It reminds me of that NASA satellite caught throwing away useful data at the system level. If you start editing deeper and deeper eventually you start to throw out important solutions. We need to keep the solution space as big as possible.

busymom0 5y ago

> By and large what “isn’t allowed” on major tech platforms is racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. That's such a naive and ignorant viewpoint. Everything which one doesn't agree with suddenly doesn't become racist, xenophobic, and homophobic content. Post from an hour ago: > Somali feminist: Facebook is being used to silence me https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28452991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28452991 Another one from 2 months ago: > The blackout Palestinians are facing on social media: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27645282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27645282 From yesterday: > The Linux Experiments YouTube channel has been terminated https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28443244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28443244 Facebook and IG also banned the mother of one of the soldiers who died in Afghanistan last week. Even women who are against biological men competing in their sports are getting silenced under the label of "transphobia." One only get to understand what censorship feels like when it comes for them.

reginold 5y ago
Thanks for saying this with examples. People sure seem to be afraid of their own thoughts if they feel the need to limit speech of others. Must be a hard way to live. And certainly makes life hard for your examples.
DoctorOW 5y ago
These are all from big corporate entities either making (admittedly terrible) mistakes, or using the precedent of those mistakes to hide. These are problems systemically fixed by having human moderators not dependent on ad revenue. > One only get to understand what censorship feels like when it comes for them. This looks like you were starting to write "First they came for the" and then realized the next word was "socialists".
- busymom0 5y ago
  They already are coming for anti establishment socialists- Jimmy Dore, Glenn Greenwald etc for example. Anti establishment Tulsi Gabbard got her ad campaign censored too. Right now it just happens to be the case that majority of the censorship is happening on the right but that’s not to mean that anti establishment voices on the left aren’t getting censored.

yarcob 5y ago

The problem isn't only with being outright blocked, the problem is also that some topics trigger immediate outrage and can't be discussed openly. For example, try talking about a need for safe spaces for X, and you will immediately get abuse from random strangers complaining that you aren't thinking about Y. Or try saying anything about treatment Z side effects. You'll be downvoted and insulted for not sufficiently trusting the science. Some discussions just work better in a less open, moderated forum, where people will try to engage with you, rather than having an angry internet mob materialize out of thin air whenever their trigger topic is mentioned.

kypro 5y ago

Are you even paying attention? This isn't true. You can be censored from social media for all sorts these days. This last year we had a UK media organisation banned from YouTube for questioning the UK COVID response. People in the US are no longer allowed to question the legitimacy of their elections on most social media platforms. Even US media outlets like the NYPost were censored for running stories Twitter didn't like during the US election. Yeah, sure you can be banned for questioning if an untransitioned man wearing a wig is really a women, but this isn't what most people are concerned about. The censorship has now gone far further and in many cases to simply disagree with mainstream narrative on some politically charged subject will be enough to have you removed. One of my favour YouTubers "Mouthy Buddha" was banned for making some videos about Epstein and paedophilia -- the guy produced "conspiracy" content but it's really high quality stuff with no hate at all. I mean even the US president was banned for "violence" despite asking rioters to go home, being acquitted and the FBI finding that there was no coordinated insurrection plan. I'm not coming at this from any political position. A lot of content social media platforms censor I don't like, but that doesn't mean I think it should be censored. Things like racism have been deliberately defined in a very loose way that practically anything can now be considered racist and used as an excuse to censor. A popular comedian in the UK got banned during the world cup for saying, "all I'm saying is, the white guys scored". He was mocking how the UK media had been running stories for weeks about how the "diversity" of the England team is what made them great, but that wasn't allowed because "racism".

M2Ys4U 5y ago
>I'm not coming at this from any political position. Saying that after your previous paragraphs doesn't erase the political content of that previous paragraphs.
- kypro 5y ago
  I meant more in the sense of classical left/right divide -- I felt the parent commenter was suggesting it's just right-wing troll types that are being censored, which isn't the case. I'm definitely in favour of free-speech, I'm just not particularly left or right wing in my political views or voting habits.