5 ms·

It is a bit hypocritical considering how often China likes to use the phrase “Do not interfere with internal affairs!”

prox 5y ago
A bit hypocritical?
Ekaros 5y ago
Not really if you accept them considering actions by Chinese as internal affairs. It is not like USA which extradite non-citizens...
- zwaps 5y ago
  They are interfering plenty with non Chinese affairs. Remember, saying Hong Kong or Taiwan as a caster at a video game competition organized by a US company will get you fired. Or are we forgetting these incidents now?
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Hong Kong and Taiwan for them are entirely internal affairs. Thus any comments on them are also internal affairs.
    - hkmaxpro 5y ago
      China claims that the South China Sea is its internal affairs too [0][1]. If China succeeds, soon it will claim every part of the Mongol empire (including almost all of Eastern Europe and some parts of Central Europe) is its internal affairs, because China considers the Mongol empire as merely one of its dynasties. Remember how China censored a French exhibition about Genghis Khan? [2] Only a fool would believe their claim about “internal affairs”. [0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2148979/china-putting-troops-weapons-south-china-sea-islands https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/21... [1] https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html (in Chinese) [2] https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-genghis-khan-show-after-chinese-pressure https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-gen...
      - caoilte 5y ago
        I found this to be a pretty good blog post summarizing China's geographical interests. https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/what-china-wants https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/what-china-wan... Obviously they project soft power further, but it is based on economic leverage in the same way that the USA has been doing since WW2. For example, that French museum exhibition was dependent on a Chinese museum to do their exhibition. That dependency came with strings. Only a fool would think that means the Red Army is about to invade Eastern Europe.
        hkmaxpro 5y ago
        My point was “internal affairs” is just an arbitrary excuse. Are you trying to justify China’s claim about the South China Sea and surrounding areas as “internal affairs” with that blog post? Whether or not the Red Army will invade Eastern Europe with the excuse of “internal affairs” has nothing to do with my point. To be honest, if China succeeds in invading Taiwan because of “internal affairs”, they will likely go after Japan and Vietnam next (perhaps with other excuses), even though none of them fell to the Mongol empire. I’m don’t want a lengthy discussion about what will happen next. I was just pointing out the arbitrariness of “internal affairs”. Sorry if you couldn’t get my point.
        caoilte 5y ago
        I get your point, I was just trying to divert the conversation away from an unsubstantiated "domino theory" that seems to be grounded in hysterics and towards analysis of history, geography and geo-politics.
        soco 5y ago
        Just as a note: the red army is (was) the soviet army.
        caoilte 5y ago
        D'oh! Thank you sir
    - zwaps 5y ago
      What about Chinese mistreatments of African workers (in Africa). That is not internal, clearly, and yet criticism gets you in trouble.
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      Taiwan isn't a part of China, therefore it's not internal by definition. Of course the CCP doesn't like that, but it's a fact that won't be changed by just harassing media for showing the correct map.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        You may want to brush up on your international recognition history. Officially, for the UN and literally all countries bar a few microstates, Taiwan is a province of China. The fact that they are, for (almost) all intents and purposes an independent separate country isn't recognised by anyone officially, and that probably won't change unless a regime change happens in China.
        alpaca128 5y ago
        Sure, because "literally all countries" made themselves dependent on China economically and so are more or less forced to go along with it. But I personally am not.
        sofixa 5y ago
        No, this dates to the 1970s when China was an underdeveloped country with a mainly agrarian economy, and it was just accepting the facts from the late 1940s when the Chinese Civil war ended with the RoC running away to Taiwan (up until the 1970s most countries recognised RoC as the China, even though it controlled only Taiwan - now it's the opposite, the PRC is recognised as the China, even though it doesn't control Taiwan).
        alpaca128 5y ago
        Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Though it often doesn't seem that clear-cut when e.g. the WHO ignores question even mentioning Taiwan or companies apologize for stupidly minor details - things like that don't make the chinese government look very confident in their status.
- cannabis_sam 5y ago
  It’s far worse than that. They literally kidnapped a Swedish citizen and tortured him into a confession, and claimed jurisdiction just because he used to be a Chinese citizen.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    At lease in that case person was at one point Chinese citizen. Unlike USA which keeps murdering non-citizens. Not to mention extraditions...
    - hkmaxpro 5y ago
      Gui Minhai was kidnapped as a Swedish. While in detention, he was forced to surrender his Swedish citizenship to restore the Chinese citizenship. You got the timeline wrong. China’s tactic is a breach of Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#2020_trial_and_sentence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#2020_trial_and_sent...
    - cannabis_sam 5y ago
      Don’t let Sweden off the hook that easily: https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-... They were completely complicit in human rights violating, american extraditions. Still, it doesn't change anything about China kidnapping a Swedish citizen and torturing him into a confession because he dared to criticize China.
taneq 5y ago
Perfectly in line with the contrast between the U.S. meddling in international affairs and their outrage when it happens to them. This isn't whataboutism, to be clear - I'm just pointing out that this is what big governments DO. It becomes less about ideals and more about expedience.

prox 5y ago

A bit hypocritical?

Not really if you accept them considering actions by Chinese as internal affairs. It is not like USA which extradite non-citizens...

zwaps 5y ago
They are interfering plenty with non Chinese affairs. Remember, saying Hong Kong or Taiwan as a caster at a video game competition organized by a US company will get you fired. Or are we forgetting these incidents now?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Hong Kong and Taiwan for them are entirely internal affairs. Thus any comments on them are also internal affairs.
  - hkmaxpro 5y ago
    China claims that the South China Sea is its internal affairs too [0][1]. If China succeeds, soon it will claim every part of the Mongol empire (including almost all of Eastern Europe and some parts of Central Europe) is its internal affairs, because China considers the Mongol empire as merely one of its dynasties. Remember how China censored a French exhibition about Genghis Khan? [2] Only a fool would believe their claim about “internal affairs”. [0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2148979/china-putting-troops-weapons-south-china-sea-islands https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/21... [1] https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html https://www.js7tv.cn/news/201806_147250.html (in Chinese) [2] https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-genghis-khan-show-after-chinese-pressure https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-french-museum-halts-gen...
    - caoilte 5y ago
      I found this to be a pretty good blog post summarizing China's geographical interests. https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/what-china-wants https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/what-china-wan... Obviously they project soft power further, but it is based on economic leverage in the same way that the USA has been doing since WW2. For example, that French museum exhibition was dependent on a Chinese museum to do their exhibition. That dependency came with strings. Only a fool would think that means the Red Army is about to invade Eastern Europe.
      - hkmaxpro 5y ago
        My point was “internal affairs” is just an arbitrary excuse. Are you trying to justify China’s claim about the South China Sea and surrounding areas as “internal affairs” with that blog post? Whether or not the Red Army will invade Eastern Europe with the excuse of “internal affairs” has nothing to do with my point. To be honest, if China succeeds in invading Taiwan because of “internal affairs”, they will likely go after Japan and Vietnam next (perhaps with other excuses), even though none of them fell to the Mongol empire. I’m don’t want a lengthy discussion about what will happen next. I was just pointing out the arbitrariness of “internal affairs”. Sorry if you couldn’t get my point.
        caoilte 5y ago
        I get your point, I was just trying to divert the conversation away from an unsubstantiated "domino theory" that seems to be grounded in hysterics and towards analysis of history, geography and geo-politics.
      - soco 5y ago
        Just as a note: the red army is (was) the soviet army.
        caoilte 5y ago
        D'oh! Thank you sir
  - zwaps 5y ago
    What about Chinese mistreatments of African workers (in Africa). That is not internal, clearly, and yet criticism gets you in trouble.
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    Taiwan isn't a part of China, therefore it's not internal by definition. Of course the CCP doesn't like that, but it's a fact that won't be changed by just harassing media for showing the correct map.
    - sofixa 5y ago
      You may want to brush up on your international recognition history. Officially, for the UN and literally all countries bar a few microstates, Taiwan is a province of China. The fact that they are, for (almost) all intents and purposes an independent separate country isn't recognised by anyone officially, and that probably won't change unless a regime change happens in China.
      - alpaca128 5y ago
        Sure, because "literally all countries" made themselves dependent on China economically and so are more or less forced to go along with it. But I personally am not.
        sofixa 5y ago
        No, this dates to the 1970s when China was an underdeveloped country with a mainly agrarian economy, and it was just accepting the facts from the late 1940s when the Chinese Civil war ended with the RoC running away to Taiwan (up until the 1970s most countries recognised RoC as the China, even though it controlled only Taiwan - now it's the opposite, the PRC is recognised as the China, even though it doesn't control Taiwan).
        alpaca128 5y ago
        Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Though it often doesn't seem that clear-cut when e.g. the WHO ignores question even mentioning Taiwan or companies apologize for stupidly minor details - things like that don't make the chinese government look very confident in their status.
cannabis_sam 5y ago
It’s far worse than that. They literally kidnapped a Swedish citizen and tortured him into a confession, and claimed jurisdiction just because he used to be a Chinese citizen.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  At lease in that case person was at one point Chinese citizen. Unlike USA which keeps murdering non-citizens. Not to mention extraditions...
  - hkmaxpro 5y ago
    Gui Minhai was kidnapped as a Swedish. While in detention, he was forced to surrender his Swedish citizenship to restore the Chinese citizenship. You got the timeline wrong. China’s tactic is a breach of Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#2020_trial_and_sentence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#2020_trial_and_sent...
  - cannabis_sam 5y ago
    Don’t let Sweden off the hook that easily: https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-... They were completely complicit in human rights violating, american extraditions. Still, it doesn't change anything about China kidnapping a Swedish citizen and torturing him into a confession because he dared to criticize China.

taneq 5y ago

Perfectly in line with the contrast between the U.S. meddling in international affairs and their outrage when it happens to them. This isn't whataboutism, to be clear - I'm just pointing out that this is what big governments DO. It becomes less about ideals and more about expedience.