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So join them. I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The American id

So join them. I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The American idea of leftism varies widely, and on all axis too. A similar thing can be found in the right. Both have populist factions that have a lot in common. Many identify as indie too. They lack a solid party home. Both have moderate and conservative factions too. Authoritarianism is also on the rise generally. All of this can be disturbing. I find the economic policy that way right now myself. Labor seems to be organizing though. Others see that as disturbing! What I know, having had a ton of conversations in various venues around the nation is the body politic is far more complex. Everyone is listening to some loud or compelling voices and not talking with one another near enough to garner a better sense of where people are at and how policy might make a whole lot better sense. It does not have to be disturbing. Shouldn't in my view.

LAC-Tech 5y ago
> I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The vast majority of people do not want to have that conversation (hence the flagged post of the grandparent).
- ddingus 5y ago
  Why? I find the answer in most cases is worries over personal judgement. More of us quit doing that and more people will have that conversation. I usually lead with, "ignore the talking heads on TV." Worked wonders for me. I enjoy politics and culture again as do others I talk to. The other basic worry is inability to manage a conversation coupled with the idea of ideology being the means to better ends rather than the reasoning tool it really is. A person who maintains one ideology, sans a working understanding of others, will feel threatened when its merit is challenged. Fact is we have many solutions to the problems we face with no requirement they all conform to a single ideological frame.
unraveller 5y ago
The creators say they don't want people not of their ilk joining so this idea that open debate is welcome is disingenuous. They don't allow anyone to federate with the main instance either if they don't also toe the political line.
- reginold 5y ago
  Can you explain what "don't allow anyone to federate with the main instance" means in this case? Is it like you can host your own server, but the "index" of servers at lenny.ml won't list you unless you meet their standards? Seems acceptable to me (anyone else can host their own index right?) just trying to understand.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    Yes it’s like that. Mastodon has the same thing going on, where the main index from their official site and the biggest instances won’t peer with you (let your users and theirs interact in each other’s instances) unless you implement their rules and moderation requirements in your instance. For mastodon what that means is that instances that aren’t progressive/far left aren’t welcome and are essentially not viable because they have no user base or network effects to seed their community with.
    - reginold 5y ago
      Fascinating. Well that clearly doesn't work. It's almost like having an index at all forces a ranking or framing. And so perhaps the index itself is what needs to go.
    - stevenicr 5y ago
      What does this look like to the average user? I'm imagining - finding a topic or person or something that you want to follow, and then, your 'instance' / host pops up with "the thing you are trying to get data from is banned from this host". Seems like an excellent opportunity to upsell someone to starting their own host / own rules system.. Star your own droplet for $10 a month maybe?
pugets 5y ago
I tried to do this on a few different sites, but in my experience, there simply aren't enough good-faith actors. The dirtbag left[0] reigns over the nice fellows in leftist circles on Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. They don't want to engage capitalists in debate... they don't even want anyone in their own ranks playing devil's advocate. They want to call you a chud and take a screenshot of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirtbag_left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirtbag_left
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ddingus 5y ago
  There are more ways than devil's advocate to have conversations.
- ddingus 5y ago
  Secondly, it does not have to be leftists vs capitalists. There are parts of society well served by markets and other parts that really aren't. Same goes for applying socialist ideas to problems. Recognizing just that fact is a basis for conversation that can lead somewhere meaningful for all involved.
  - zepto 5y ago
    How do you get leftists to have a conversation on that basis?
    - uabstraction 5y ago
      If you want leftists to engage with you in good faith, you simply need to ask the right questions. Questions that demonstrate a baseline of familiarity with the history and theory being interrogated. The Left isn't averse to debate. The Left is averse to repeating the same tired arguments about iPhones and authority and "human nature" until the heat death of the universe. Things that have been addressed in great detail for over a century. There is actually a lively debate taking place. It just typically doesn't take the form of Zizek vs. Peterson SuperBowl style spectacles. It takes place in literature, and in meetings among organizers trying to actually accomplish their goals. People like that don't give a flying fuck what John Stossel or Ben Shapiro have to say. This mainstream "debate culture" is so far detached from the actual struggles taking place.

LAC-Tech 5y ago

> I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The vast majority of people do not want to have that conversation (hence the flagged post of the grandparent).

ddingus 5y ago
Why? I find the answer in most cases is worries over personal judgement. More of us quit doing that and more people will have that conversation. I usually lead with, "ignore the talking heads on TV." Worked wonders for me. I enjoy politics and culture again as do others I talk to. The other basic worry is inability to manage a conversation coupled with the idea of ideology being the means to better ends rather than the reasoning tool it really is. A person who maintains one ideology, sans a working understanding of others, will feel threatened when its merit is challenged. Fact is we have many solutions to the problems we face with no requirement they all conform to a single ideological frame.

unraveller 5y ago

The creators say they don't want people not of their ilk joining so this idea that open debate is welcome is disingenuous. They don't allow anyone to federate with the main instance either if they don't also toe the political line.

reginold 5y ago
Can you explain what "don't allow anyone to federate with the main instance" means in this case? Is it like you can host your own server, but the "index" of servers at lenny.ml won't list you unless you meet their standards? Seems acceptable to me (anyone else can host their own index right?) just trying to understand.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  Yes it’s like that. Mastodon has the same thing going on, where the main index from their official site and the biggest instances won’t peer with you (let your users and theirs interact in each other’s instances) unless you implement their rules and moderation requirements in your instance. For mastodon what that means is that instances that aren’t progressive/far left aren’t welcome and are essentially not viable because they have no user base or network effects to seed their community with.
  - reginold 5y ago
    Fascinating. Well that clearly doesn't work. It's almost like having an index at all forces a ranking or framing. And so perhaps the index itself is what needs to go.
  - stevenicr 5y ago
    What does this look like to the average user? I'm imagining - finding a topic or person or something that you want to follow, and then, your 'instance' / host pops up with "the thing you are trying to get data from is banned from this host". Seems like an excellent opportunity to upsell someone to starting their own host / own rules system.. Star your own droplet for $10 a month maybe?

pugets 5y ago

I tried to do this on a few different sites, but in my experience, there simply aren't enough good-faith actors. The dirtbag left[0] reigns over the nice fellows in leftist circles on Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. They don't want to engage capitalists in debate... they don't even want anyone in their own ranks playing devil's advocate. They want to call you a chud and take a screenshot of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirtbag_left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirtbag_left

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ddingus 5y ago
There are more ways than devil's advocate to have conversations.
ddingus 5y ago
Secondly, it does not have to be leftists vs capitalists. There are parts of society well served by markets and other parts that really aren't. Same goes for applying socialist ideas to problems. Recognizing just that fact is a basis for conversation that can lead somewhere meaningful for all involved.
- zepto 5y ago
  How do you get leftists to have a conversation on that basis?
  - uabstraction 5y ago
    If you want leftists to engage with you in good faith, you simply need to ask the right questions. Questions that demonstrate a baseline of familiarity with the history and theory being interrogated. The Left isn't averse to debate. The Left is averse to repeating the same tired arguments about iPhones and authority and "human nature" until the heat death of the universe. Things that have been addressed in great detail for over a century. There is actually a lively debate taking place. It just typically doesn't take the form of Zizek vs. Peterson SuperBowl style spectacles. It takes place in literature, and in meetings among organizers trying to actually accomplish their goals. People like that don't give a flying fuck what John Stossel or Ben Shapiro have to say. This mainstream "debate culture" is so far detached from the actual struggles taking place.