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I refuse to believe this. There is a way to fight deception, by using democratic approaches built into the tools that gather information. The only way to fight

I refuse to believe this. There is a way to fight deception, by using democratic approaches built into the tools that gather information. The only way to fight deception is through more transparency. Information has to be more easy to understand, and the tools we (as the people) have right now pale in comparison to the tools that disinformation campaign managers have. We need to even out their strategical advantage.

s5300 5y ago
The only way to fight deception is through education, and a certain political party within the U.S. has spent the last 40-50 years completely butchering the public education system to a point near beyond repair. Our last secretary of education was the heir to the most pervasive MLM pyramid scheme in the U.S., and is also part of a cult that believes a certain pre-determined number of cult members (very small percentage of them) go to heaven and every other human on Earth is condemned to eternal purgatory. Now, maybe call me a crazy bigot, but I don't exactly see how such a person might have strengthening our public school system as part of their best interests. MLM products don't buy themselves, you know.
- hulitu 5y ago
  The same happened in europe (bologna convention). The ruling class realized that education can make people ask questions and they fixed this.
- cookiengineer 5y ago
  I completely agree with you there. The thing is: We have the internet, the most influential technology to spread information and educate people that has ever been created. It's time to use it again like it was in the MIT OpenCourseWare kind of days, before deceivers got their platforms where they can "buy-in" their opinions. And I personally think that a Web Browser could be so much more than just a dumb tool to download things and forget about them afterwards. It could be an assistant, a teacher, a ledger, a librarian, a historian.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > The thing is: We have the internet, the most influential technology to spread information and educate people that has ever been created. A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on. The internet accelerates lies at least as much as the truth. I don't think the problem is education, it's a lack of strong shared commitments. It doesn't matter how clearly you explain something if the other party isn't interested in understanding it. I don't think that problem will be solved as long as all factions are more focused on defeating each other at all costs.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  The recent progressives want to call Math is racist. So this goes both ways, they’re both destroying literacy.
  - s5300 5y ago
    No, this is not a thing. I do not care what you saw in social media being talked about by 0.1% of the US populace. There is however a long recorded history of a significant amount of the Republican party attempting to insist that science is wrong/the devil and that faith in God is all one needs to make it through life in our modern world, whatever that's supposed to encompass.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      Agreed it’s not as bad but neutering Math education was up for vote in the state of California until they delayed - after hundreds of Math professors from Stanford and Berkeley wrote an open letter. I just think that it’s not as small as you think it is. Left wing identity politics is already being taught to kids today. I’m a Democrat but it’s getting harder for me to understand extreme left wing agenda.
everdrive 5y ago
This probably doesn't matter very much, but I found it very interesting. If you watch some old 80s movies, you'll find they had a very naive sense of information, deception, and revolution. I'm thinking particularly of movies or shows like Pump Up the Volume or Max Headroom. "The People" (ie, a few extras and the main characters) were presented with "the truth" (ie, a few sentences about some minor corruption.) and this led to a deus ex machina revolution where those powers were somehow "defeated." Even if this didn't happen on screen, it was sort of implied "everything is ok now." I think these sorts of cultural ideas hearken back to the cold war, and refer directly to the USSR. Real, specific coverups occurred, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_cover-ups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_cover-ups) and were perpetrated directly by specific government officials, and these specific government officials sat atop a very fragile and vulnerable government structure. Furthermore, the government truly attempted to cover things up, usually successfully. Obviously we're in a much different world now, and the propagation of information has forced an evil government to move from coverup to disinformation. (or at least spin and messaging.) It sometimes feels like the culture has not quite caught up to this yet. I still see people shouting that people need to know "the truth," and there seems to be an expectation that once "the people" know "the truth," then everything will be alright, just like we saw on TV so many times.

s5300 5y ago

The only way to fight deception is through education, and a certain political party within the U.S. has spent the last 40-50 years completely butchering the public education system to a point near beyond repair. Our last secretary of education was the heir to the most pervasive MLM pyramid scheme in the U.S., and is also part of a cult that believes a certain pre-determined number of cult members (very small percentage of them) go to heaven and every other human on Earth is condemned to eternal purgatory. Now, maybe call me a crazy bigot, but I don't exactly see how such a person might have strengthening our public school system as part of their best interests. MLM products don't buy themselves, you know.

hulitu 5y ago
The same happened in europe (bologna convention). The ruling class realized that education can make people ask questions and they fixed this.
cookiengineer 5y ago
I completely agree with you there. The thing is: We have the internet, the most influential technology to spread information and educate people that has ever been created. It's time to use it again like it was in the MIT OpenCourseWare kind of days, before deceivers got their platforms where they can "buy-in" their opinions. And I personally think that a Web Browser could be so much more than just a dumb tool to download things and forget about them afterwards. It could be an assistant, a teacher, a ledger, a librarian, a historian.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > The thing is: We have the internet, the most influential technology to spread information and educate people that has ever been created. A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on. The internet accelerates lies at least as much as the truth. I don't think the problem is education, it's a lack of strong shared commitments. It doesn't matter how clearly you explain something if the other party isn't interested in understanding it. I don't think that problem will be solved as long as all factions are more focused on defeating each other at all costs.
systemvoltage 5y ago
The recent progressives want to call Math is racist. So this goes both ways, they’re both destroying literacy.
- s5300 5y ago
  No, this is not a thing. I do not care what you saw in social media being talked about by 0.1% of the US populace. There is however a long recorded history of a significant amount of the Republican party attempting to insist that science is wrong/the devil and that faith in God is all one needs to make it through life in our modern world, whatever that's supposed to encompass.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    Agreed it’s not as bad but neutering Math education was up for vote in the state of California until they delayed - after hundreds of Math professors from Stanford and Berkeley wrote an open letter. I just think that it’s not as small as you think it is. Left wing identity politics is already being taught to kids today. I’m a Democrat but it’s getting harder for me to understand extreme left wing agenda.

everdrive 5y ago

This probably doesn't matter very much, but I found it very interesting. If you watch some old 80s movies, you'll find they had a very naive sense of information, deception, and revolution. I'm thinking particularly of movies or shows like Pump Up the Volume or Max Headroom. "The People" (ie, a few extras and the main characters) were presented with "the truth" (ie, a few sentences about some minor corruption.) and this led to a deus ex machina revolution where those powers were somehow "defeated." Even if this didn't happen on screen, it was sort of implied "everything is ok now." I think these sorts of cultural ideas hearken back to the cold war, and refer directly to the USSR. Real, specific coverups occurred, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_cover-ups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_cover-ups) and were perpetrated directly by specific government officials, and these specific government officials sat atop a very fragile and vulnerable government structure. Furthermore, the government truly attempted to cover things up, usually successfully. Obviously we're in a much different world now, and the propagation of information has forced an evil government to move from coverup to disinformation. (or at least spin and messaging.) It sometimes feels like the culture has not quite caught up to this yet. I still see people shouting that people need to know "the truth," and there seems to be an expectation that once "the people" know "the truth," then everything will be alright, just like we saw on TV so many times.