7 ms·

In the years before covid, as the sole American in a few 'strayan social circles, I'd receive sh*t for Americans protesting about their "rights" and how entitle

In the years before covid, as the sole American in a few 'strayan social circles, I'd receive sh*t for Americans protesting about their "rights" and how entitled they are. Now with Covid, Australian citizens can't leave or can't come in (without significant effort). I've seen a shift in thinking amongst my Australian friends and family. The Australians I know now see value in something like a bill of rights. Like in business, no one pulls out the contract unless things are going to crap.

markdown 5y ago
There isn't a bill of rights without exceptions, and a pandemic (public health) is always going to be one of those exceptions. It doesn't help at all during a pandemic.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  I don't know dude I just partied all weekend without any issues, no mask, no constraints on where I could go. No mandates. Seems like some places have their ducks in a row. Get vaccinated and live a little bit...
  - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
    > I don't know dude I just partied all weekend without any issues, no mask, no constraints on where I could go. No mandates. During a pandemic, this is something to cringe at, not celebrate
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      This is, in some form, the new normal. I'd suggest finding a way to make it work for you.
    - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
      A pandemic where healthy, vaccinated people have a far, far lower chance to die or be seriously injured than driving to wherever they are going. You can hide in your home for the rest of your life in order to minimize any potential change of future risks, but good luck forcing everyone else to do so at the point of a gun. This virus is never going away, and people are getting sick of the authoritarianism being carried out in the name of "safety". Life is inherently risky, and this is just another one of life's risks. Myself and my friends have been vaccinated since spring, and we have been living life exactly the same as we did before the pandemic started here in New York - and we will continue to do so.
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      The only thing I find cringeworthy is people who revel in “Covid Culture”, making a deliberate spectacle of what a good, compliant, obedient individual they are and what awful crimethinking, irresponsible saboteurs anyone who takes a taste of proper life again is. People who use the “it’s a pandemic stupid” line to sweep perfectly legitimate concerns about civil liberties, generational inequality, and the futures of businesses who aren’t massive chains under the carpet concern me far more than people ditching masks and going to parties do. Zero Covid is up their with young Earth creationism and homeopathy in terms of completely irrational policies. Living where avoiding getting sick and avoiding others getting sick is your primary goal isn’t a life at all, it’s an existence like that of a diary cow or a battery hen. That might be distressingly close to how politicians and their patrons privately see us mere mortals, but it’s no way for a free society to function. We aren’t just economic fuel to be burned up for the benefit of society and discarded when we’re not longer useful, we are human beings and we need a life that’s more meaningful and dignified than “stop the spread covidiot”.
      - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
        So much to unpack here... Until recently, Victoria has managed to bring all previous outbreaks to zero. COVID zero works until other states started undermining said goal in the name of business. By saving NSW businesses 3 weeks of not locking down, they've geniously bought themselves 2 months and counting of lockdowns along with high highest number COVID ever seen in Australia. > We aren’t just economic fuel to be burned up for the benefit of society By not locking down (and providing you with payment), you literally become their economic fuel you mention to keep their markets going. Stop listing to what the right wing media are pedaling. You're literally goosestepping into their freedumb.
        BoxOfRain 5y ago
        This isn't a partisan thing, the liberal/authoritarian axis is independent from the collectivist/individualist axis. I'm against authoritarianism full stop, I don't care about the other policies sold alongside authoritarianism. Trying to tar me as right-wing for being anti-authoritarian is ignorant at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Zero covid is a fool's errand unless you want to be a North Korea-style hermit kingdom shut off from the rest of the world. It is at best a policy that buys time to get people vaccinated, but attempting to carry it out indefinitely is nothing more than an iron fist of tyranny concealed in a velvet glove of safety. The way out of this is vaccination against covid and society coming to terms with the objective fact humanity will never be rid of this virus. We will be forced to live with the virus one way or another, it's just a matter of how much collateral damage zero covid zealots do to society on the way there. Put it this way, if some tinpot dictatorship in the developing world was preventing dual nationals from leaving they would be sanctioned to Hell and back in a month.
  - sumedh 5y ago
    Which place are you talking about?
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  It does if the people take it seriously. If they tolerate infringement of their rights every time the government says there is a crisis, they will careen from crisis to crisis until their rights are gone. A bill of rights is just paper until the people give it force by refusing to tolerate violations under any circumstances.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  The pandemic is forever. It will be 2040 and I guarantee you the Coronavirus will be here with various mutations. For some reason people are not grasping the reality of how long this is going to last. Until we die, the masks are here to stay, the restrictions are here to stay. Vaccine stocks are going to the moon because there is going to be a need for vaccines for many decades. We will be taking shots every year if not more frequently.
- mchusma 5y ago
  But are we in a "pandemic" still? How do you define pandemic? If you go by "a disease spreading out there", then surely colds and flus qualify every year, just nobody bothers to think much of it. I think we need some quantitative benchmark, like: - if emergency measures are ever taken, any ban on vaccines is lifted -once vaccines are no longer banned, to qualify for increased measures the disease must be expected to have 5x worse case fatality rate than the flu in vaccinated people. So in the US we have 3 groups: - vaccinated people where the disease risk is very low (lower than flu) - children who are banned from taking the vaccine - unvaccinated people whose deaths should be labeled suicide. Their deaths are tragic, but it's basically more akin to suicide than anything else. I mean if I just don't eat, I don't really die of starvation, I die by suicide. So it's fine, let them do what they want, but don't make everyone suffer for it.

markdown 5y ago

There isn't a bill of rights without exceptions, and a pandemic (public health) is always going to be one of those exceptions. It doesn't help at all during a pandemic.

stjohnswarts 5y ago
I don't know dude I just partied all weekend without any issues, no mask, no constraints on where I could go. No mandates. Seems like some places have their ducks in a row. Get vaccinated and live a little bit...
- alfiedotwtf 5y ago
  > I don't know dude I just partied all weekend without any issues, no mask, no constraints on where I could go. No mandates. During a pandemic, this is something to cringe at, not celebrate
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    This is, in some form, the new normal. I'd suggest finding a way to make it work for you.
  - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
    A pandemic where healthy, vaccinated people have a far, far lower chance to die or be seriously injured than driving to wherever they are going. You can hide in your home for the rest of your life in order to minimize any potential change of future risks, but good luck forcing everyone else to do so at the point of a gun. This virus is never going away, and people are getting sick of the authoritarianism being carried out in the name of "safety". Life is inherently risky, and this is just another one of life's risks. Myself and my friends have been vaccinated since spring, and we have been living life exactly the same as we did before the pandemic started here in New York - and we will continue to do so.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    The only thing I find cringeworthy is people who revel in “Covid Culture”, making a deliberate spectacle of what a good, compliant, obedient individual they are and what awful crimethinking, irresponsible saboteurs anyone who takes a taste of proper life again is. People who use the “it’s a pandemic stupid” line to sweep perfectly legitimate concerns about civil liberties, generational inequality, and the futures of businesses who aren’t massive chains under the carpet concern me far more than people ditching masks and going to parties do. Zero Covid is up their with young Earth creationism and homeopathy in terms of completely irrational policies. Living where avoiding getting sick and avoiding others getting sick is your primary goal isn’t a life at all, it’s an existence like that of a diary cow or a battery hen. That might be distressingly close to how politicians and their patrons privately see us mere mortals, but it’s no way for a free society to function. We aren’t just economic fuel to be burned up for the benefit of society and discarded when we’re not longer useful, we are human beings and we need a life that’s more meaningful and dignified than “stop the spread covidiot”.
    - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
      So much to unpack here... Until recently, Victoria has managed to bring all previous outbreaks to zero. COVID zero works until other states started undermining said goal in the name of business. By saving NSW businesses 3 weeks of not locking down, they've geniously bought themselves 2 months and counting of lockdowns along with high highest number COVID ever seen in Australia. > We aren’t just economic fuel to be burned up for the benefit of society By not locking down (and providing you with payment), you literally become their economic fuel you mention to keep their markets going. Stop listing to what the right wing media are pedaling. You're literally goosestepping into their freedumb.
      - BoxOfRain 5y ago
        This isn't a partisan thing, the liberal/authoritarian axis is independent from the collectivist/individualist axis. I'm against authoritarianism full stop, I don't care about the other policies sold alongside authoritarianism. Trying to tar me as right-wing for being anti-authoritarian is ignorant at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Zero covid is a fool's errand unless you want to be a North Korea-style hermit kingdom shut off from the rest of the world. It is at best a policy that buys time to get people vaccinated, but attempting to carry it out indefinitely is nothing more than an iron fist of tyranny concealed in a velvet glove of safety. The way out of this is vaccination against covid and society coming to terms with the objective fact humanity will never be rid of this virus. We will be forced to live with the virus one way or another, it's just a matter of how much collateral damage zero covid zealots do to society on the way there. Put it this way, if some tinpot dictatorship in the developing world was preventing dual nationals from leaving they would be sanctioned to Hell and back in a month.
- sumedh 5y ago
  Which place are you talking about?
JasonFruit 5y ago
It does if the people take it seriously. If they tolerate infringement of their rights every time the government says there is a crisis, they will careen from crisis to crisis until their rights are gone. A bill of rights is just paper until the people give it force by refusing to tolerate violations under any circumstances.
systemvoltage 5y ago
The pandemic is forever. It will be 2040 and I guarantee you the Coronavirus will be here with various mutations. For some reason people are not grasping the reality of how long this is going to last. Until we die, the masks are here to stay, the restrictions are here to stay. Vaccine stocks are going to the moon because there is going to be a need for vaccines for many decades. We will be taking shots every year if not more frequently.
mchusma 5y ago
But are we in a "pandemic" still? How do you define pandemic? If you go by "a disease spreading out there", then surely colds and flus qualify every year, just nobody bothers to think much of it. I think we need some quantitative benchmark, like: - if emergency measures are ever taken, any ban on vaccines is lifted -once vaccines are no longer banned, to qualify for increased measures the disease must be expected to have 5x worse case fatality rate than the flu in vaccinated people. So in the US we have 3 groups: - vaccinated people where the disease risk is very low (lower than flu) - children who are banned from taking the vaccine - unvaccinated people whose deaths should be labeled suicide. Their deaths are tragic, but it's basically more akin to suicide than anything else. I mean if I just don't eat, I don't really die of starvation, I die by suicide. So it's fine, let them do what they want, but don't make everyone suffer for it.