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This sort of lost my attention at the notion that all police were defunded, guns were banned, and millions of people were brutally murdered. Those ideas were pr

This sort of lost my attention at the notion that all police were defunded, guns were banned, and millions of people were brutally murdered. Those ideas were propoganda. Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief save the ideas that institutional racism be addressed and militarization of police disrupted. The most ardent municipalities replaced leadership and adapted their policing models. Its hard to take a piece about dystopia seriously after that is the premise. Aside from that, a commercial dystopia is so anglo-centric it hurts my teeth. In that scenario, the have-nots have more freedom? Consumption is slavery? The disconnected have more connection? Okay that last part rings true, the rest feels like a paradox of privilege. We are uniquely entitled to compute as we please using whatever devices and service we see fit, to block and disable telemetry at will, to sue and win when things get bad. I appreciate what the author is trying to highlight, but maybe they should go back to 1984 and see what they miss.

everdrive 5y ago
>Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief It certainly was in some circles: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
- syops 5y ago
  In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. A big reason for wanting to do this is to get rid of the problem cops. Police in the U.S. do a horrible job in solving even major crimes. They currently commit a large number of acts of violence without accountability. They system definitely needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.
  - blahblahblogger 5y ago
    > In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. A big reason for wanting to do this is to get rid of the problem cops. So throw out the whole bunch because of a few bad apples? And what happens when the replacements have problem cops? Do it over again?
    - speed_spread 5y ago
      "Bad apples" should lose their jobs before more shit happens under their watch. Instead, they become a symptom of something bigger: the police is unable to police itself.
    - jakelazaroff 5y ago
      I mean, the proverb you’re referencing is literally “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.“
      - nixpulvis 5y ago
        "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water." There are times for both expressions, but police funding is probably a more local issue than can be solved in the comments of HN.
        jakelazaroff 5y ago
        That’s true, but “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” :)
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      Five police officers in Miami recently attacked two men while thirteen of their fellow officers watched. [1] The idiom "bad apples" comes from the saying, "A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch," so it's an appropriate term here. [1] Video footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4ze5VCY1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4ze5VCY1c
      - 2xpress 5y ago
        And only charged with misdemeanor "battery" without any enhancements. Had the perps not been police it would be multiple felonies + enhancements for things like gang activity and firearm possession. Looks to me like the DA does not want to upset the police and their unions and is only doing the very minimum to make an impression that he is working.
    - 5y ago
  - anamax 5y ago
    > In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. Who are "they"? Minneapolis has been a one-party city for decades. There's nothing stopping that party from doing what it wants with the police force. For bonus points, guess the party.
    - syops 5y ago
      There are lots of things stopping the DFL from doing what it wants with the police force. I suggest you look into how police forces hold cities hostage when city government acts in a way they don’t approve of.
  - trophycase 5y ago
    This isn't even true. If you look at the wording of the referendum it basically renames the police department.
postpawl 5y ago
“In that scenario, the have-nots have more freedom? Consumption is slavery? The disconnected have more connection?” I think we’re more likely to see commercial dystopia expressed in ways like California’s Prop 22. The have-nots and disconnected are just more likely to be exploited due to their lack of ability to organize against massive lobbying powers.
- reilly3000 5y ago
  True. Those with a budget for advertising, PR, and lobbying can make a hell of a dent in this world.
bingohbangoh 5y ago
> Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief save the ideas that institutional racism be addressed and militarization of police disrupted. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... New York Times: “Yes, we mean Literally abolish the police”
- dhosek 5y ago
  One of my friends recently had her car damaged in a hit and run accident while it was parked. The cop who came to take the report bitched about how "the laws" make it hard to catch criminals, but pointedly didn't do anything about actually trying to gather evidence other than take a report. This is typical of most police reactions to crime: they'll fill out some paperwork so you can file an insurance claim but they won't bother to do any actual investigation. We don't need armed people roaming the streets to do that, it's a clerical job. After watching cops openly ignoring mask mandates over the last year and a half while they take their half-hour coffee breaks (drinking coffee for which they don't pay), I think that yes, we should literally abolish the police and replace them with something better. Right now, we're giving guns to the guys who were bullies and jerks in high school and acting surprised when they continue to bullies and jerks.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
    >I think that yes, we should literally abolish the police and replace them with something better. It’s really easy to say that but I have heard of no viable proposals to actually replace the police with “something better”. Nor do such proposals ever elaborate on how the new system would operate without vagaries and wonderful nice-to-haves like unconditional free housing for the homeless and UBI. It’s extraordinary easy to say a hypothetical system would be better. But how do you actually implement it? I also think those brutish types you mentioned from high school might be the only kind of people willing to accept the dangers and anti-social elements that officers have to put up with. If you thought working in retail was bad, the kinds of people the police have to deal with are in a league of their own.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jbm 5y ago
This might not be the right place, but I wonder if there is a parallel "Defund the Schools" argument to be made that goes along with the logic of the "Defund the Police". In another thread, some were lamenting how schools now have the responsibilities that extend well beyond simple education; should that even be part of an education system? Are we taxing it too much? Considering some of the things i have heard and seen in my own school days, it isn't hard to believe that there are issues with racism in schools. I don't think giving any institution that much power (education / future career prospects, food, etc..) is a healthy way to go about things.
alentist 5y ago
> Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief You are lying. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-became-police-abolitionist/613540/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-beca... https://thetyee.ca/Culture/2021/02/12/We-Actually-Mean-Abolish-Police-Rinaldo-Walcott/ https://thetyee.ca/Culture/2021/02/12/We-Actually-Mean-Aboli... https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/the-abolition-movement https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/the-abolition-mov...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thayne 5y ago
This is hyperbole. The situation is intentionally exaggerated to make a point. I also don't buy the argument that because other people have (or had) it worse than us, we should be content and not hope for something better. Imagine if the 13 colonies had had that attitude.
reilly3000 5y ago
For the records: I stand corrected about some of the more extreme positions that some have taken on police reform. Thanks for those who provided sources. I took it as ‘mild reforms haven’t changed anything, we have to go big’ - some seem to imagine that crime will disappear if all basic needs are met, and will happen without the threat of violence. I’d like to see some prior art for that. Also, though nobody really called me out I regret using the word anglo because I really didn't want to respond with a racial tone. I was intending to target wealthy western sensibilities more generally. While I resonated with the author’s concept of an almost hypnotic loop of endless media and product consumption, reality has afforded a lot more color and choice to us, and far less to many others. “It’s not quite right and I worry it will get worse” is a privileged sentiment coming from people who have the freedom to worship, work, think, communicate, and play as they see fit. My version of an ideal path would probably entail either consuming and producing less information as individuals, or expanding our capacity for it. We are among the first generations of our species to experience chronic information overload, and it does seem to insidiously assault our human will. However, if our liberties are materially curtained, I believe we still have the capacity to act with strength and unity. Just as a frog actually does leap out of the pot even if it’s a slowly boiled (fact), humans can break free of the attention-consumption complex when it threatens their more basic needs. That’s my theory anyhow.

everdrive 5y ago

>Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief It certainly was in some circles: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

syops 5y ago
In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. A big reason for wanting to do this is to get rid of the problem cops. Police in the U.S. do a horrible job in solving even major crimes. They currently commit a large number of acts of violence without accountability. They system definitely needs to be dismantled and rebuilt.
- blahblahblogger 5y ago
  > In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. A big reason for wanting to do this is to get rid of the problem cops. So throw out the whole bunch because of a few bad apples? And what happens when the replacements have problem cops? Do it over again?
  - speed_spread 5y ago
    "Bad apples" should lose their jobs before more shit happens under their watch. Instead, they become a symptom of something bigger: the police is unable to police itself.
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    I mean, the proverb you’re referencing is literally “one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.“
    - nixpulvis 5y ago
      "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water." There are times for both expressions, but police funding is probably a more local issue than can be solved in the comments of HN.
      - jakelazaroff 5y ago
        That’s true, but “when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail” :)
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    Five police officers in Miami recently attacked two men while thirteen of their fellow officers watched. [1] The idiom "bad apples" comes from the saying, "A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch," so it's an appropriate term here. [1] Video footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4ze5VCY1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4ze5VCY1c
    - 2xpress 5y ago
      And only charged with misdemeanor "battery" without any enhancements. Had the perps not been police it would be multiple felonies + enhancements for things like gang activity and firearm possession. Looks to me like the DA does not want to upset the police and their unions and is only doing the very minimum to make an impression that he is working.
  - 5y ago
- anamax 5y ago
  > In Minneapolis they want to dismantle the existing police force and replace it with another. Who are "they"? Minneapolis has been a one-party city for decades. There's nothing stopping that party from doing what it wants with the police force. For bonus points, guess the party.
  - syops 5y ago
    There are lots of things stopping the DFL from doing what it wants with the police force. I suggest you look into how police forces hold cities hostage when city government acts in a way they don’t approve of.
- trophycase 5y ago
  This isn't even true. If you look at the wording of the referendum it basically renames the police department.

postpawl 5y ago

“In that scenario, the have-nots have more freedom? Consumption is slavery? The disconnected have more connection?” I think we’re more likely to see commercial dystopia expressed in ways like California’s Prop 22. The have-nots and disconnected are just more likely to be exploited due to their lack of ability to organize against massive lobbying powers.

reilly3000 5y ago
True. Those with a budget for advertising, PR, and lobbying can make a hell of a dent in this world.

bingohbangoh 5y ago

> Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief save the ideas that institutional racism be addressed and militarization of police disrupted. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... New York Times: “Yes, we mean Literally abolish the police”

dhosek 5y ago
One of my friends recently had her car damaged in a hit and run accident while it was parked. The cop who came to take the report bitched about how "the laws" make it hard to catch criminals, but pointedly didn't do anything about actually trying to gather evidence other than take a report. This is typical of most police reactions to crime: they'll fill out some paperwork so you can file an insurance claim but they won't bother to do any actual investigation. We don't need armed people roaming the streets to do that, it's a clerical job. After watching cops openly ignoring mask mandates over the last year and a half while they take their half-hour coffee breaks (drinking coffee for which they don't pay), I think that yes, we should literally abolish the police and replace them with something better. Right now, we're giving guns to the guys who were bullies and jerks in high school and acting surprised when they continue to bullies and jerks.
- BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
  >I think that yes, we should literally abolish the police and replace them with something better. It’s really easy to say that but I have heard of no viable proposals to actually replace the police with “something better”. Nor do such proposals ever elaborate on how the new system would operate without vagaries and wonderful nice-to-haves like unconditional free housing for the homeless and UBI. It’s extraordinary easy to say a hypothetical system would be better. But how do you actually implement it? I also think those brutish types you mentioned from high school might be the only kind of people willing to accept the dangers and anti-social elements that officers have to put up with. If you thought working in retail was bad, the kinds of people the police have to deal with are in a league of their own.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jbm 5y ago

This might not be the right place, but I wonder if there is a parallel "Defund the Schools" argument to be made that goes along with the logic of the "Defund the Police". In another thread, some were lamenting how schools now have the responsibilities that extend well beyond simple education; should that even be part of an education system? Are we taxing it too much? Considering some of the things i have heard and seen in my own school days, it isn't hard to believe that there are issues with racism in schools. I don't think giving any institution that much power (education / future career prospects, food, etc..) is a healthy way to go about things.

alentist 5y ago

> Defunding the police was never a sincerely held belief You are lying. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-became-police-abolitionist/613540/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/how-i-beca... https://thetyee.ca/Culture/2021/02/12/We-Actually-Mean-Abolish-Police-Rinaldo-Walcott/ https://thetyee.ca/Culture/2021/02/12/We-Actually-Mean-Aboli... https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/the-abolition-movement https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/the-abolition-mov...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

thayne 5y ago

This is hyperbole. The situation is intentionally exaggerated to make a point. I also don't buy the argument that because other people have (or had) it worse than us, we should be content and not hope for something better. Imagine if the 13 colonies had had that attitude.

reilly3000 5y ago

For the records: I stand corrected about some of the more extreme positions that some have taken on police reform. Thanks for those who provided sources. I took it as ‘mild reforms haven’t changed anything, we have to go big’ - some seem to imagine that crime will disappear if all basic needs are met, and will happen without the threat of violence. I’d like to see some prior art for that. Also, though nobody really called me out I regret using the word anglo because I really didn't want to respond with a racial tone. I was intending to target wealthy western sensibilities more generally. While I resonated with the author’s concept of an almost hypnotic loop of endless media and product consumption, reality has afforded a lot more color and choice to us, and far less to many others. “It’s not quite right and I worry it will get worse” is a privileged sentiment coming from people who have the freedom to worship, work, think, communicate, and play as they see fit. My version of an ideal path would probably entail either consuming and producing less information as individuals, or expanding our capacity for it. We are among the first generations of our species to experience chronic information overload, and it does seem to insidiously assault our human will. However, if our liberties are materially curtained, I believe we still have the capacity to act with strength and unity. Just as a frog actually does leap out of the pot even if it’s a slowly boiled (fact), humans can break free of the attention-consumption complex when it threatens their more basic needs. That’s my theory anyhow.