5 ms·

How many even middle class Americans have a fidelity account? Do you think the average El Salvadoran sending remittance AND their counterpart are banked with l

How many even middle class Americans have a fidelity account? Do you think the average El Salvadoran sending remittance AND their counterpart are banked with low cost access to international wire transfer? Transferring crypto, without KYC (which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US), for $~3 in transfer fees plus whatever rate they can get face-to-face (which could be near 0% exchange fee) is damn good. I doubt most of these marginalized workers in the US (not all El Salvadorans, I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and travelling to El Salvador on a plane.

arcticbull 5y ago
I think I actually addressed your point. Anyone can sign up with a Fidelity account just as easily as they can sign up with an exchange, to send free USD denominated wires. As for whether counter-parties in ES charge for wire receipts, I don't know! Receiving is generally far less expensive than sending. You appear to have completely skipped over Wise, which I pointed out to you is better in ... every way, and completely free of charge? > Transferring crypto, without KYC... Transferring crypto, without KYC, is a real concern to every developed country on earth. And I believe the Salvadoran sanctioned wallet KYCs ya too. > ...which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US I'm sorry, why are we building a system to make being an illegal immigrant easier again? I'm pro-immigration, and an immigrant myself. However, this is a country of laws is it not? Generally speaking I think we should open up immigration much more broadly. However, I also don't think it's a stretch to say if you're here illegally that's a bad thing and we shouldn't make it easier to do that? > I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and traveling to El Salvador on a plane. Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes.
- quantumBerry 5y ago
  I still don't buy your thesis that there aren't huge swaths of unbanked El Salvadorans who could benefit from low fee crypto transfers, especially now that it is a recognized currency in El Salvador. To use Wise without any fees would require both parties to be banked. I know it isn't fruitful here to discuss whether illegal immigrants should exist (maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve). But they do exist, and they will seek out the lowest cost non-KYC options, and crypto looks to be a decent bet. There are other people as well without documents, such as homeless who have long lost them and people born in weird situation where their parents never sought legal documents for their existence. >Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes. As are banks and fiat.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > ...maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve. Well, no, remember that asylum is legal immigration and asylees and claimants are free to use the banking system. A properly and fairly executed asylum system actually threads the needle here nicely. Of course they shouldn't exist, we both agree. Given the system is imperfect what should we do, is the question you're asking I think. My answer is not "build circumvention tools" but instead "advocate for reform." In the same way I think drugs should be legal, but instead of building a darknet marketplace - which solves zero existing problems and creates 10 more new ones - I instead advocate for drug decriminalization and prison reform. And safe injection sites. This makes the world a better place. > As are banks and fiat. Of course, but that system tries to stop them with the things you rail against, like AML and KYC rules - whereas crypto welcomes them with open arms. That's a fundamental difference. Whatever is built upon it is fruit of the poison tree, rife with adverse selection. I maintain that building tools to circumvent constitutional laws you happen not to like is a bad thing. I think that energy is better expended advocating for better legislation. It's hard, but it's infinitely better.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      There's no KYC for holding fiat, and transactions above 10k are on the honor system for cash purchases. Cash "welcomes them with open arms." There's also minimal checking of those that leave our borders; someone could easily cross into Mexico with 100k in a breifcase of Swiss Francs and no one would be the wiser. Virtually anyone that lives near the border understands this. > Whatever is built upon it is fruit of the poison tree To you; to me it's built on the tree of liberty. >building a darknet marketplace - which solves zero existing problems The existing problem was that people would show up in cash in person, and often without either parties being vetted. The darkmarket did not totally solve this problem but it did help it, by creating a rating system and allowing people to buy items without needing to put themselves in the vicinity of a potentially dangerous drug den. Sometimes direct action is more empowering to the common man than legislation. As Cody Wilson said when he made the 3d gun popular, it was a political act that the world just has to deal with. Bringing crypto into this world "legislated" into reality a way to move funds in a way the legislature failed to by blocking the path of those who are conventionally blocked by KYC and AML. I don't know that every El Salvadoran can just wait indefinitely for legislation to pass for their money to come in from their family members working in the US. Every dollar taken away from them from the likes of Western Union et al is money straight out of the mouth of possibly impoverished family members, and we shouldn't begrudge these people the tools to fund their unbanked families at a fair rate.

arcticbull 5y ago

I think I actually addressed your point. Anyone can sign up with a Fidelity account just as easily as they can sign up with an exchange, to send free USD denominated wires. As for whether counter-parties in ES charge for wire receipts, I don't know! Receiving is generally far less expensive than sending. You appear to have completely skipped over Wise, which I pointed out to you is better in ... every way, and completely free of charge? > Transferring crypto, without KYC... Transferring crypto, without KYC, is a real concern to every developed country on earth. And I believe the Salvadoran sanctioned wallet KYCs ya too. > ...which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US I'm sorry, why are we building a system to make being an illegal immigrant easier again? I'm pro-immigration, and an immigrant myself. However, this is a country of laws is it not? Generally speaking I think we should open up immigration much more broadly. However, I also don't think it's a stretch to say if you're here illegally that's a bad thing and we shouldn't make it easier to do that? > I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and traveling to El Salvador on a plane. Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes.

quantumBerry 5y ago
I still don't buy your thesis that there aren't huge swaths of unbanked El Salvadorans who could benefit from low fee crypto transfers, especially now that it is a recognized currency in El Salvador. To use Wise without any fees would require both parties to be banked. I know it isn't fruitful here to discuss whether illegal immigrants should exist (maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve). But they do exist, and they will seek out the lowest cost non-KYC options, and crypto looks to be a decent bet. There are other people as well without documents, such as homeless who have long lost them and people born in weird situation where their parents never sought legal documents for their existence. >Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes. As are banks and fiat.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > ...maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve. Well, no, remember that asylum is legal immigration and asylees and claimants are free to use the banking system. A properly and fairly executed asylum system actually threads the needle here nicely. Of course they shouldn't exist, we both agree. Given the system is imperfect what should we do, is the question you're asking I think. My answer is not "build circumvention tools" but instead "advocate for reform." In the same way I think drugs should be legal, but instead of building a darknet marketplace - which solves zero existing problems and creates 10 more new ones - I instead advocate for drug decriminalization and prison reform. And safe injection sites. This makes the world a better place. > As are banks and fiat. Of course, but that system tries to stop them with the things you rail against, like AML and KYC rules - whereas crypto welcomes them with open arms. That's a fundamental difference. Whatever is built upon it is fruit of the poison tree, rife with adverse selection. I maintain that building tools to circumvent constitutional laws you happen not to like is a bad thing. I think that energy is better expended advocating for better legislation. It's hard, but it's infinitely better.
  - quantumBerry 5y ago
    There's no KYC for holding fiat, and transactions above 10k are on the honor system for cash purchases. Cash "welcomes them with open arms." There's also minimal checking of those that leave our borders; someone could easily cross into Mexico with 100k in a breifcase of Swiss Francs and no one would be the wiser. Virtually anyone that lives near the border understands this. > Whatever is built upon it is fruit of the poison tree To you; to me it's built on the tree of liberty. >building a darknet marketplace - which solves zero existing problems The existing problem was that people would show up in cash in person, and often without either parties being vetted. The darkmarket did not totally solve this problem but it did help it, by creating a rating system and allowing people to buy items without needing to put themselves in the vicinity of a potentially dangerous drug den. Sometimes direct action is more empowering to the common man than legislation. As Cody Wilson said when he made the 3d gun popular, it was a political act that the world just has to deal with. Bringing crypto into this world "legislated" into reality a way to move funds in a way the legislature failed to by blocking the path of those who are conventionally blocked by KYC and AML. I don't know that every El Salvadoran can just wait indefinitely for legislation to pass for their money to come in from their family members working in the US. Every dollar taken away from them from the likes of Western Union et al is money straight out of the mouth of possibly impoverished family members, and we shouldn't begrudge these people the tools to fund their unbanked families at a fair rate.