5 ms·

Public schools in the United States are a total disaster. Never mind that billions of dollars are spend on education, on research of education (edu depts in uni

by mudil 5y ago

Public schools in the United States are a total disaster. Never mind that billions of dollars are spend on education, on research of education (edu depts in universities, federal Dept of Education, nonprofits, etc), and on public policy designed to improve the education (sociology depts, etc). These millions of people are supposedly serving the children, the minorities, the disadvantaged. Where are the results? Why do poor kids end up in atrocious schools that don't teach? Why do minority kids, say in Baltimore, end up in the filthiest schools that have drugs and no education? Where are the results from all these do-gooders that constantly say they are representing minorities and children? We need a diversity of school choices and, more importantly, diversity of opinions on how to handle this crisis. Liberal left controls the educational system from the very top to all the way on the bottom. Now for many years. And education is not working for inner city schools and in the rural areas.

handrous 5y ago
Effective solutions amount to "solve poverty, and/or socio-economic divides in housing distribution". By that I don't mean that we shouldn't try, but we should, ideally, work toward actually solving the problem, which means schools aren't the front-line for this change. There's a reason we spend so much on schools—hell, some of the worst here pay the best and get tons of extra (federal, state) money—for such poor outcomes, and it's because that's the wrong place to be focusing that effort. It's like trying to lift a boulder by hand, unaided, versus with heavy machinery & rigging. You can put in so much effort and yet the boulder doesn't move.
- Cookingboy 5y ago
  >solve poverty, and/or socio-economic divides in housing distribution Most countries don't have education quality this much tied to local property taxes. It is totally possible to increase equality for education without fully fix income/housing inequality.
  - mudil 5y ago
    Just FYI, US public education is not good even in affluent areas.
    - fuzzylightbulb 5y ago
      > Just FYI, US public education is not good even in effluent areas. See: Freudian slip
    - Cookingboy 5y ago
      Compared to what? I grew up in Shanghai and went to great schools but I also attended one of the best public school districts in Texas for high school, and there are many areas that I think my high school did better than its Chinese counterparts.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      I grew up in the UK, and went to public schools there (comprehensives, no grammar schools etc). I've lived in Seattle, Philadelphia and now near Santa Fe. I've raised 3 children through public and a tiny bit of private schooling. The good US education which my children received in suburban Phila. was very, very good. It wasn't really the education I had dreamed of them having, and it certainly wasn't the education that I received. It was different from both, but still excellent. My two daughters enjoyed school a lot, which coming from the UK in the 1970s is quite a big deal all by itself. My son, less so, but even he (now 32) finds many good parts to look back on. The education paid less attention to the rote learning I experienced, and lots more attention to collaborative learning, integrated curricula (crossing subject domains, for example), and individual student empowerment. So yeah, my kinds don't know how a wheatstone bridge operates (I'm not even sure they know how an electrical switch operates). But I am absolutely confident that they are at least as well, if not better equipped for the world they are now adults in than they would have been if they had experienced the education I received in the UK. This is certainly not true across the US. But it was true in a very affluent, extremely well-funded school district, and that by itself, IMO, invalidates your claim.
    - cafard 5y ago
      Oh? Co-workers' kids have got excellent educations in Montgomery County, Maryland, and Fairfax County, Virginia. Others have done quite well in the District of Columbia magnet high schools or at Wilson High School there.
Cookingboy 5y ago
If you want relatively equal access to education and ensure minimal gap between poorer areas and wealthier areas, then there is no alternative other than a centralized education system where tax is collected federally and funding and initiatives are driven by comprehensively studying the needs of the whole country. Just like many other things in this country, the distributed, State/local based education system simply does not scale for the 21st century. The reason we are wasting so much money in education is despite the total cost, due to the siloed/localized system we have, we can't effectively direct funding to places that need it most. The federal government can spend tens of millions doing some "study" in why education sucks in rural schools, but it can't use a penny of that money to actually pay salaries of teachers in rural schools. In some other countries you have national programs where they pay young teachers extra to go to less desirable areas to teach, and that's just one minor examples we can learn from. And that's not counting the whole federal budget. Just imagine how many school districts like the one from this article we can save if we just build one less Ford class aircraft carrier.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mudil 5y ago
  Statements like "local based education system simply does not scale for the 21st century" is a bunch of nonsense. Don't you think that children of Baltimore deserve accountability from Baltimore politicians? Who runs these schools? Republicans in Texas?
  - Cookingboy 5y ago
    >Don't you think that children of Baltimore deserve accountability from Baltimore politicians? Nope. Education is such a complex and critical task that letting local politicians to decide the fate of our children in the hyper competitive 21st century is borderline insane. >Who runs these schools? Republicans in Texas? That's complete strawman. Most countries have non-partisan experts (i,e non-politicians) in charge of education. Just because everything is politicized and hyper-partisan in this broken country doesn't mean it's the only way going forward.
merpnderp 5y ago
True, a voucher system that let parents take their education dollars with them and spend it on the school of their choice would go a long way towards solving this. There's a reason the only serious opponents against school choice are teachers unions. In some inner city districts there's a budget of nearly $20k per student. At that rate, a few parents could get together and hire PhD's to personally tutor their children. This is something a well off friend of mine did with a bunch of other people during COVID last year. He called it a pod of families. Imagine if everyone had access to this through vouchers?
- dashundchen 5y ago
  > In some inner city districts there's a budget of nearly $20k per student. At that rate, a few parents could get together and hire PhD's to personally tutor their children. It's important to consider a good chunk of the budget inflation in city districts isn't for education, because in the US, urban school systems also serve as the social service system for so many students. Medical check-ups, meals before and after school, social workers, devices like hearing aids, physical/occupational therapy - all of this gets routed through the school system because it's the best chance of delivering these services to the students, especially those from lower income families who are frequently transient. From the districts near me, the largest urban district is also where most students with the most severe disabilities (and most expensive needs) are sent from the whole region. Suburban and rural districts don't have enough of a population to serve their needs, so their education is centralized in the city.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  I think you need to read the article. Based on the article, nothing about your proposal would fix the school system in Holmes County, MS. Not in a million years.

by mudil 5y ago

handrous 5y ago

Effective solutions amount to "solve poverty, and/or socio-economic divides in housing distribution". By that I don't mean that we shouldn't try, but we should, ideally, work toward actually solving the problem, which means schools aren't the front-line for this change. There's a reason we spend so much on schools—hell, some of the worst here pay the best and get tons of extra (federal, state) money—for such poor outcomes, and it's because that's the wrong place to be focusing that effort. It's like trying to lift a boulder by hand, unaided, versus with heavy machinery & rigging. You can put in so much effort and yet the boulder doesn't move.

Cookingboy 5y ago
>solve poverty, and/or socio-economic divides in housing distribution Most countries don't have education quality this much tied to local property taxes. It is totally possible to increase equality for education without fully fix income/housing inequality.
- mudil 5y ago
  Just FYI, US public education is not good even in affluent areas.
  - fuzzylightbulb 5y ago
    > Just FYI, US public education is not good even in effluent areas. See: Freudian slip
  - Cookingboy 5y ago
    Compared to what? I grew up in Shanghai and went to great schools but I also attended one of the best public school districts in Texas for high school, and there are many areas that I think my high school did better than its Chinese counterparts.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    I grew up in the UK, and went to public schools there (comprehensives, no grammar schools etc). I've lived in Seattle, Philadelphia and now near Santa Fe. I've raised 3 children through public and a tiny bit of private schooling. The good US education which my children received in suburban Phila. was very, very good. It wasn't really the education I had dreamed of them having, and it certainly wasn't the education that I received. It was different from both, but still excellent. My two daughters enjoyed school a lot, which coming from the UK in the 1970s is quite a big deal all by itself. My son, less so, but even he (now 32) finds many good parts to look back on. The education paid less attention to the rote learning I experienced, and lots more attention to collaborative learning, integrated curricula (crossing subject domains, for example), and individual student empowerment. So yeah, my kinds don't know how a wheatstone bridge operates (I'm not even sure they know how an electrical switch operates). But I am absolutely confident that they are at least as well, if not better equipped for the world they are now adults in than they would have been if they had experienced the education I received in the UK. This is certainly not true across the US. But it was true in a very affluent, extremely well-funded school district, and that by itself, IMO, invalidates your claim.
  - cafard 5y ago
    Oh? Co-workers' kids have got excellent educations in Montgomery County, Maryland, and Fairfax County, Virginia. Others have done quite well in the District of Columbia magnet high schools or at Wilson High School there.

Cookingboy 5y ago

If you want relatively equal access to education and ensure minimal gap between poorer areas and wealthier areas, then there is no alternative other than a centralized education system where tax is collected federally and funding and initiatives are driven by comprehensively studying the needs of the whole country. Just like many other things in this country, the distributed, State/local based education system simply does not scale for the 21st century. The reason we are wasting so much money in education is despite the total cost, due to the siloed/localized system we have, we can't effectively direct funding to places that need it most. The federal government can spend tens of millions doing some "study" in why education sucks in rural schools, but it can't use a penny of that money to actually pay salaries of teachers in rural schools. In some other countries you have national programs where they pay young teachers extra to go to less desirable areas to teach, and that's just one minor examples we can learn from. And that's not counting the whole federal budget. Just imagine how many school districts like the one from this article we can save if we just build one less Ford class aircraft carrier.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mudil 5y ago
Statements like "local based education system simply does not scale for the 21st century" is a bunch of nonsense. Don't you think that children of Baltimore deserve accountability from Baltimore politicians? Who runs these schools? Republicans in Texas?
- Cookingboy 5y ago
  >Don't you think that children of Baltimore deserve accountability from Baltimore politicians? Nope. Education is such a complex and critical task that letting local politicians to decide the fate of our children in the hyper competitive 21st century is borderline insane. >Who runs these schools? Republicans in Texas? That's complete strawman. Most countries have non-partisan experts (i,e non-politicians) in charge of education. Just because everything is politicized and hyper-partisan in this broken country doesn't mean it's the only way going forward.

merpnderp 5y ago

True, a voucher system that let parents take their education dollars with them and spend it on the school of their choice would go a long way towards solving this. There's a reason the only serious opponents against school choice are teachers unions. In some inner city districts there's a budget of nearly $20k per student. At that rate, a few parents could get together and hire PhD's to personally tutor their children. This is something a well off friend of mine did with a bunch of other people during COVID last year. He called it a pod of families. Imagine if everyone had access to this through vouchers?

dashundchen 5y ago
> In some inner city districts there's a budget of nearly $20k per student. At that rate, a few parents could get together and hire PhD's to personally tutor their children. It's important to consider a good chunk of the budget inflation in city districts isn't for education, because in the US, urban school systems also serve as the social service system for so many students. Medical check-ups, meals before and after school, social workers, devices like hearing aids, physical/occupational therapy - all of this gets routed through the school system because it's the best chance of delivering these services to the students, especially those from lower income families who are frequently transient. From the districts near me, the largest urban district is also where most students with the most severe disabilities (and most expensive needs) are sent from the whole region. Suburban and rural districts don't have enough of a population to serve their needs, so their education is centralized in the city.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
I think you need to read the article. Based on the article, nothing about your proposal would fix the school system in Holmes County, MS. Not in a million years.