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Can you think of a traditional international transfer service that has better rates for <1k transfer than coinbase (0.5%) ? I could buy LTC or BCH on coinbase

Can you think of a traditional international transfer service that has better rates for <1k transfer than coinbase (0.5%) ? I could buy LTC or BCH on coinbase and have pennies of transaction fees beyond the exchange fees. I think the only thing cheaper may be to find some company that allows international wire for very cheap, and that normally requires holding a lot of fiat in the bank.

arcticbull 5y ago
0.5% + an on-chain transaction fee, which varies between $0.50 and $60.00, and of course, you have to price in exchange rate slippage over the course of your (a) initial transaction and (b) the hours-long confirmation times of a BTC payment. BTCs top tercile realized volatility is 79% [2]. Then there's the risk your exchange just up and keeps your money (counter-party risk, see Quadriga). Or that the recipients exchange does (counter-party risk, see Quadriga). Since USD is an official currency of El Salvador, you can just send a USD wire without currency conversion fees, that can be up to $50 -- but Fidelity charges $0. [3] You could also set up a Wise multi-currency account, which is supported in El Salvador. You'll get banking details in the US (and many other jurisdictions) to which you can ACH money free of charge, or receive a Fedwire for $7. [1] [edit] If you need to send small amounts of money, Wise is hard to beat. If you need to send big money, InteractiveBrokers Forex trading is the definition of market rate, and their commission is 0.002% (2/10th of a basis point), minimum $2. So, $20 per million. This has been a solved problem for a very long time. [1] https://wise.com/multi-currency-account/ https://wise.com/multi-currency-account/ [2] https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/the-best-way-to-understand-bitcoin-volatility-2021-05-19 https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/the-best-way-to-understand-b... [3] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-wh...
- quantumBerry 5y ago
  How many even middle class Americans have a fidelity account? Do you think the average El Salvadoran sending remittance AND their counterpart are banked with low cost access to international wire transfer? Transferring crypto, without KYC (which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US), for $~3 in transfer fees plus whatever rate they can get face-to-face (which could be near 0% exchange fee) is damn good. I doubt most of these marginalized workers in the US (not all El Salvadorans, I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and travelling to El Salvador on a plane.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I think I actually addressed your point. Anyone can sign up with a Fidelity account just as easily as they can sign up with an exchange, to send free USD denominated wires. As for whether counter-parties in ES charge for wire receipts, I don't know! Receiving is generally far less expensive than sending. You appear to have completely skipped over Wise, which I pointed out to you is better in ... every way, and completely free of charge? > Transferring crypto, without KYC... Transferring crypto, without KYC, is a real concern to every developed country on earth. And I believe the Salvadoran sanctioned wallet KYCs ya too. > ...which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US I'm sorry, why are we building a system to make being an illegal immigrant easier again? I'm pro-immigration, and an immigrant myself. However, this is a country of laws is it not? Generally speaking I think we should open up immigration much more broadly. However, I also don't think it's a stretch to say if you're here illegally that's a bad thing and we shouldn't make it easier to do that? > I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and traveling to El Salvador on a plane. Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      I still don't buy your thesis that there aren't huge swaths of unbanked El Salvadorans who could benefit from low fee crypto transfers, especially now that it is a recognized currency in El Salvador. To use Wise without any fees would require both parties to be banked. I know it isn't fruitful here to discuss whether illegal immigrants should exist (maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve). But they do exist, and they will seek out the lowest cost non-KYC options, and crypto looks to be a decent bet. There are other people as well without documents, such as homeless who have long lost them and people born in weird situation where their parents never sought legal documents for their existence. >Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes. As are banks and fiat.
      - 5y ago

arcticbull 5y ago

0.5% + an on-chain transaction fee, which varies between $0.50 and $60.00, and of course, you have to price in exchange rate slippage over the course of your (a) initial transaction and (b) the hours-long confirmation times of a BTC payment. BTCs top tercile realized volatility is 79% [2]. Then there's the risk your exchange just up and keeps your money (counter-party risk, see Quadriga). Or that the recipients exchange does (counter-party risk, see Quadriga). Since USD is an official currency of El Salvador, you can just send a USD wire without currency conversion fees, that can be up to $50 -- but Fidelity charges $0. [3] You could also set up a Wise multi-currency account, which is supported in El Salvador. You'll get banking details in the US (and many other jurisdictions) to which you can ACH money free of charge, or receive a Fedwire for $7. [1] [edit] If you need to send small amounts of money, Wise is hard to beat. If you need to send big money, InteractiveBrokers Forex trading is the definition of market rate, and their commission is 0.002% (2/10th of a basis point), minimum $2. So, $20 per million. This has been a solved problem for a very long time. [1] https://wise.com/multi-currency-account/ https://wise.com/multi-currency-account/ [2] https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/the-best-way-to-understand-bitcoin-volatility-2021-05-19 https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/the-best-way-to-understand-b... [3] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-what-banks-charge https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/wire-transfers-wh...

quantumBerry 5y ago
How many even middle class Americans have a fidelity account? Do you think the average El Salvadoran sending remittance AND their counterpart are banked with low cost access to international wire transfer? Transferring crypto, without KYC (which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US), for $~3 in transfer fees plus whatever rate they can get face-to-face (which could be near 0% exchange fee) is damn good. I doubt most of these marginalized workers in the US (not all El Salvadorans, I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and travelling to El Salvador on a plane.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I think I actually addressed your point. Anyone can sign up with a Fidelity account just as easily as they can sign up with an exchange, to send free USD denominated wires. As for whether counter-parties in ES charge for wire receipts, I don't know! Receiving is generally far less expensive than sending. You appear to have completely skipped over Wise, which I pointed out to you is better in ... every way, and completely free of charge? > Transferring crypto, without KYC... Transferring crypto, without KYC, is a real concern to every developed country on earth. And I believe the Salvadoran sanctioned wallet KYCs ya too. > ...which is a real concern for persons from central america who may not have documentation for a bank account or legal status in the US I'm sorry, why are we building a system to make being an illegal immigrant easier again? I'm pro-immigration, and an immigrant myself. However, this is a country of laws is it not? Generally speaking I think we should open up immigration much more broadly. However, I also don't think it's a stretch to say if you're here illegally that's a bad thing and we shouldn't make it easier to do that? > I'm sure there are plenty of rich ones with Fidelity accounts who haven't been the utilitarian use case for crypto transfer) could do better without packing up a bundle of cash and traveling to El Salvador on a plane. Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes.
  - quantumBerry 5y ago
    I still don't buy your thesis that there aren't huge swaths of unbanked El Salvadorans who could benefit from low fee crypto transfers, especially now that it is a recognized currency in El Salvador. To use Wise without any fees would require both parties to be banked. I know it isn't fruitful here to discuss whether illegal immigrants should exist (maybe we should block all their access to money supply so they and their family can starve). But they do exist, and they will seek out the lowest cost non-KYC options, and crypto looks to be a decent bet. There are other people as well without documents, such as homeless who have long lost them and people born in weird situation where their parents never sought legal documents for their existence. >Crypto is always available for money launders and criminals, yes. As are banks and fiat.
    - 5y ago