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Let's ignore that Bitcoin is climate arson, and that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs. Bitcoin has a max throughput of 7 transactions per se

Let's ignore that Bitcoin is climate arson, and that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs. Bitcoin has a max throughput of 7 transactions per second. It's utter lunacy to suggest that it could function as a currency for a country. This will only end in tears.

kleer001 5y ago
Energy use is not energy source. There's been no full accounting of the carbon footprint of bitcoin mining, only its use. Much of it is done using geothermal or other renewable sources. (edit, incorrect) That El Salvador is adopting it refutes your second claim. Then there's the lightning network which increases the transaction throughput. Everything is going to be okay.
- okl 5y ago
  Here are some estimates: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption Do you think they are wrong? By how much?
- edgefield 5y ago
  Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in its current form is environmental lunacy. I don't know what problem digital currency solves when the planet can no longer sustain human life due to climate change.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    100 corporations are responsible for 71% of global emissions. https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10... I struggle to find hand wringing about bitcoin's energy consumption as anything but naive or sour grapes. Society is never going to voluntarily reverse total energy consumption. Either price bitcoin mining out of the market, or focus on voting with your wallet and regulating carbon emissions at the energy production level. Arguing about how people should spend their money on energy is a waste of political energy. Millions of people believe that bitcoin is worth the energy costs. "Too much" energy usage is entirely subjective.
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users who end up stuck with X% of their energy use provided by non-renewables, so the real carbon footprint is still similar.
  - thebean11 5y ago
    Not necessarily. That would only be true if storing and/or transporting energy was cheap or easy.
    - thomastjeffery 5y ago
      Yes, that is a factor. Other factors include abandoned coal fire plants being restarted for mining. The question is not if there is a factor that is positive, but whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Every source I have seen is confident they do not.
      - thebean11 5y ago
        That's a pretty different claim from the one I replied to, but yes I agree additional consumption of fossil fuels is an important factor. The claim that consumption of renewable energy is equivalent to consumption of fossil fuels, because that renewable energy would have otherwise offset fossil fuel consumption I don't agree with though.
      - cwkoss 5y ago
        Maybe we should focus regulations on coal fire plants instead of cryptocurrency?
        thomastjeffery 5y ago
        We can and should focus on both.
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    > Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users […] This would be true only if electrical capacity were completely inelastic. It is not. Electrical capacity is relatively slow to respond to changes in demand, sure, but it does respond. Consider the scale of the increase in electrical capacity that will be needed to fully move the US alone to EVs. That change will not have a hard cost cap, either - people are willing to pay quite a bit to operate their automobiles, and the current cost to operate an EV is substantially less than the cost of operating a similar ICE vehicle. Bitcoin mining does have a hard cost cap: ([Bitcoin price] * 6.25 + [Bitcoin price] * [~10 minutes of transaction fees]). In about 2024, that 6.25 will drop to 3.125. Ultimately Bitcoin mining is driven by economic forces, and those same forces are the same that control the scale of power generation worldwide. You can see Bitcoin’s energy use as being used only to secure the network; I see it as securing the network and driving incentives for the development and expansion of electrical infrastructure.
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  > Energy use is not energy source I’ll go a step further - Bitcoin’s energy use is centralized around the cheapest sources due to economic forces. If renewables are cheaper at scale than fossil fuels, Bitcoin’s energy use could in fact become a net positive for the world. To put it another way, the profitability of mining is directly proportional to the cost of electricity compared to the global average. This should drive the development of less expensive forms of energy over time. Even if fossil fuels are cheapest today (and I’m not certain that’s true), there is an ongoing cost floor due to it relying upon extraction, processing, transportation, and burning. Solar, for example, has a higher capital cost but presumably a lower ongoing $/kWh. Finally, ~5% (2.2-13.3%) of electricity generated in the US is lost due to transmission from the point of generation to the point of consumption. India loses 20-30%. [0] Bitcoin mining, given its high power consumption, should specifically drive decentralized power generation. This in turn could help make such technology available for other uses, resulting in a less centralized, more robust power grid. 0: http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/ http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-... 1: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23452 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23452
  - X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
    Using renewables to do something that doesn't need to be done is not a win. I divested from all PoW coins except ETH in expectation that PoS will be completed soon.
    - Ancapistani 5y ago
      > Using renewables to do something that doesn't need to be done is not a win. It is if it spurs development of the underlying tech. Pornography isn’t necessary, but because it was consumed in volume we ended up with ubiquitous household VCRs in the 80s and 90s.
      - lottin 5y ago
        > It is if it spurs development of the underlying tech. How does that work? For example, if leave a lightbulb on all day long, does that spur adoption or development of renewable energy sources?
eyeball 5y ago
They’re using the 2nd layer lightning network which has more tps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network#2021_adoption_in_El_Salvador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network#2021_adoptio...
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  It's down though. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1435197879795212291%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fchivo-wallet-disabled-people-el-salvador-rush-use-bitcoin-1626652 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?r...
  - thebean11 5y ago
    The lightning network? Or the government's node? https://explorer.acinq.co/ https://explorer.acinq.co/
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      The Chivo Wallet nodes, which is the required one in El Salvador.
- Devasta 5y ago
  Lightning network still requires you to have on chain transactions to open your connections though, it's not nearly the fix that people pretend it is.
  - thebean11 5y ago
    Sure, and to close them. But now one on-chain transaction maps to N actual economic transactions happening, which is great for scaling. Not to say on-chain transactions don't also need to scale, but layer 2 will always be important.
dmarcos 5y ago
El salvador payment system is built on the lighting network. A layer 2 scaling solution for bitcoin (up to 25 million transactions per second) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network edit: typos
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
  0 currently. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1435197879795212291%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fchivo-wallet-disabled-people-el-salvador-rush-use-bitcoin-1626652 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?r... Also. Lightning network can give unreliable transaction costs ( eg. When sending to an unknown wallet) It's weird that everyone is supporting an off chain solution. It kinda defeats the purpose of Bitcoin in general.
  - thesmok 5y ago
    It depends on what you think the purpose of Bitcoin is. In my mind Bitcoin is digital gold. It's not really convenient to pay for McDo in gold, so I would hold my gold in a bank and pay with fractions of my gold certificates. If I want, I can go to the bank and exchange my certificates for the actual bullions.
    - NicoJuicy 5y ago
      I look at it as the first implementation of the Blockchain. While Blockchain can be valuable, Bitcoin is not. Note : i did hold btc until late 2017.
liquidise 5y ago
> that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs I am not surprised to see hyperbole like this, but i'm disappointed that they are so routinely upvoted. I've personally used bitcoin for sending money across borders (for legitimate purposes) and never for drugs or money laundering. Apologies for my reactivity, but i think highly of the HN community and get deeply frustrated that this sort of ignorant hyperbole is peddled and supported.
- okl 5y ago
  On one hand I agree with your assessment. On the other you argue with a personal anecdote -- not much better, is it?
  - adim86 5y ago
    Actually it is because we are dealing with an factual data point (I), rather than someone using hyperbole by saying something is ONLY used for x. one data point proves that wrong
    - okl 5y ago
      I think parent correctly identified it as hyperbole, a figure of speech, not a syllogism.
    - lottin 5y ago
      One data point disproves that it can't be used for purposes other than tax evasion and money laundering, it doesn't disprove that is commonly used for this purpose and little else.
    - didntknowya 5y ago
      so you'd accept one anecdotal comment about a transaction without any details as a fact, versus the well known numerous transactions bitcoin has gained infamy from in the darknet markets- which supposedly is evidential enough for the FBI?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Geee 5y ago
Such an ignorant comment. There are hundreds of millions Bitcoin users globally, and only a very small fraction of them are criminals of any kind. And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world.
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  I agree that that half of the comment was ignorant. The rest still stands.
- handrous 5y ago
  > And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world. I've not heard of a legal counterfeiter. How's that work?
  - Geee 5y ago
    The Federal Reserve has a legalized monopoly on counterfeiting US dollars. [0] [0] https://mises.org/library/fed-giant-counterfeiter https://mises.org/library/fed-giant-counterfeiter
    - handrous 5y ago
      Ah—you arrived there by redefining the word. Got it.
      - didntknowya 5y ago
        google always has a moving goalpost you can link to
- cwkoss 5y ago
  USD is the currency of choice for criminals.
- Devasta 5y ago
  Hundreds of millions in possession of bitcoin maybe, but the number using it for any legitimate purpose is a miniscule fraction of that. The vast majority are in it under the assumption that bigger rubes will come along later to buy it off them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
stiltzkin 5y ago
Seems you have really outdated info about Bitcoin, Bitcoin being not fungible is a great tool for analysing/tracking transactions. Money laundering and drugs use FIAT or Monero.

kleer001 5y ago

Energy use is not energy source. There's been no full accounting of the carbon footprint of bitcoin mining, only its use. Much of it is done using geothermal or other renewable sources. (edit, incorrect) That El Salvador is adopting it refutes your second claim. Then there's the lightning network which increases the transaction throughput. Everything is going to be okay.

okl 5y ago
Here are some estimates: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption Do you think they are wrong? By how much?
edgefield 5y ago
Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in its current form is environmental lunacy. I don't know what problem digital currency solves when the planet can no longer sustain human life due to climate change.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  100 corporations are responsible for 71% of global emissions. https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10... I struggle to find hand wringing about bitcoin's energy consumption as anything but naive or sour grapes. Society is never going to voluntarily reverse total energy consumption. Either price bitcoin mining out of the market, or focus on voting with your wallet and regulating carbon emissions at the energy production level. Arguing about how people should spend their money on energy is a waste of political energy. Millions of people believe that bitcoin is worth the energy costs. "Too much" energy usage is entirely subjective.
thomastjeffery 5y ago
Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users who end up stuck with X% of their energy use provided by non-renewables, so the real carbon footprint is still similar.
- thebean11 5y ago
  Not necessarily. That would only be true if storing and/or transporting energy was cheap or easy.
  - thomastjeffery 5y ago
    Yes, that is a factor. Other factors include abandoned coal fire plants being restarted for mining. The question is not if there is a factor that is positive, but whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Every source I have seen is confident they do not.
    - thebean11 5y ago
      That's a pretty different claim from the one I replied to, but yes I agree additional consumption of fossil fuels is an important factor. The claim that consumption of renewable energy is equivalent to consumption of fossil fuels, because that renewable energy would have otherwise offset fossil fuel consumption I don't agree with though.
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      Maybe we should focus regulations on coal fire plants instead of cryptocurrency?
      - thomastjeffery 5y ago
        We can and should focus on both.
- Ancapistani 5y ago
  > Using renewable energy still takes that opportunity away from other users […] This would be true only if electrical capacity were completely inelastic. It is not. Electrical capacity is relatively slow to respond to changes in demand, sure, but it does respond. Consider the scale of the increase in electrical capacity that will be needed to fully move the US alone to EVs. That change will not have a hard cost cap, either - people are willing to pay quite a bit to operate their automobiles, and the current cost to operate an EV is substantially less than the cost of operating a similar ICE vehicle. Bitcoin mining does have a hard cost cap: ([Bitcoin price] * 6.25 + [Bitcoin price] * [~10 minutes of transaction fees]). In about 2024, that 6.25 will drop to 3.125. Ultimately Bitcoin mining is driven by economic forces, and those same forces are the same that control the scale of power generation worldwide. You can see Bitcoin’s energy use as being used only to secure the network; I see it as securing the network and driving incentives for the development and expansion of electrical infrastructure.
Ancapistani 5y ago
> Energy use is not energy source I’ll go a step further - Bitcoin’s energy use is centralized around the cheapest sources due to economic forces. If renewables are cheaper at scale than fossil fuels, Bitcoin’s energy use could in fact become a net positive for the world. To put it another way, the profitability of mining is directly proportional to the cost of electricity compared to the global average. This should drive the development of less expensive forms of energy over time. Even if fossil fuels are cheapest today (and I’m not certain that’s true), there is an ongoing cost floor due to it relying upon extraction, processing, transportation, and burning. Solar, for example, has a higher capital cost but presumably a lower ongoing $/kWh. Finally, ~5% (2.2-13.3%) of electricity generated in the US is lost due to transmission from the point of generation to the point of consumption. India loses 20-30%. [0] Bitcoin mining, given its high power consumption, should specifically drive decentralized power generation. This in turn could help make such technology available for other uses, resulting in a less centralized, more robust power grid. 0: http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/ http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-... 1: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23452 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23452
- X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
  Using renewables to do something that doesn't need to be done is not a win. I divested from all PoW coins except ETH in expectation that PoS will be completed soon.
  - Ancapistani 5y ago
    > Using renewables to do something that doesn't need to be done is not a win. It is if it spurs development of the underlying tech. Pornography isn’t necessary, but because it was consumed in volume we ended up with ubiquitous household VCRs in the 80s and 90s.
    - lottin 5y ago
      > It is if it spurs development of the underlying tech. How does that work? For example, if leave a lightbulb on all day long, does that spur adoption or development of renewable energy sources?

eyeball 5y ago

They’re using the 2nd layer lightning network which has more tps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network#2021_adoption_in_El_Salvador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network#2021_adoptio...

NicoJuicy 5y ago
It's down though. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1435197879795212291%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fchivo-wallet-disabled-people-el-salvador-rush-use-bitcoin-1626652 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?r...
- thebean11 5y ago
  The lightning network? Or the government's node? https://explorer.acinq.co/ https://explorer.acinq.co/
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    The Chivo Wallet nodes, which is the required one in El Salvador.
Devasta 5y ago
Lightning network still requires you to have on chain transactions to open your connections though, it's not nearly the fix that people pretend it is.
- thebean11 5y ago
  Sure, and to close them. But now one on-chain transaction maps to N actual economic transactions happening, which is great for scaling. Not to say on-chain transactions don't also need to scale, but layer 2 will always be important.

dmarcos 5y ago

El salvador payment system is built on the lighting network. A layer 2 scaling solution for bitcoin (up to 25 million transactions per second) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_Network edit: typos

NicoJuicy 5y ago
0 currently. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1435197879795212291%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fchivo-wallet-disabled-people-el-salvador-rush-use-bitcoin-1626652 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1435197879795212291?r... Also. Lightning network can give unreliable transaction costs ( eg. When sending to an unknown wallet) It's weird that everyone is supporting an off chain solution. It kinda defeats the purpose of Bitcoin in general.
- thesmok 5y ago
  It depends on what you think the purpose of Bitcoin is. In my mind Bitcoin is digital gold. It's not really convenient to pay for McDo in gold, so I would hold my gold in a bank and pay with fractions of my gold certificates. If I want, I can go to the bank and exchange my certificates for the actual bullions.
  - NicoJuicy 5y ago
    I look at it as the first implementation of the Blockchain. While Blockchain can be valuable, Bitcoin is not. Note : i did hold btc until late 2017.

liquidise 5y ago

> that its only used for money laundering and buying drugs I am not surprised to see hyperbole like this, but i'm disappointed that they are so routinely upvoted. I've personally used bitcoin for sending money across borders (for legitimate purposes) and never for drugs or money laundering. Apologies for my reactivity, but i think highly of the HN community and get deeply frustrated that this sort of ignorant hyperbole is peddled and supported.

okl 5y ago
On one hand I agree with your assessment. On the other you argue with a personal anecdote -- not much better, is it?
- adim86 5y ago
  Actually it is because we are dealing with an factual data point (I), rather than someone using hyperbole by saying something is ONLY used for x. one data point proves that wrong
  - okl 5y ago
    I think parent correctly identified it as hyperbole, a figure of speech, not a syllogism.
  - lottin 5y ago
    One data point disproves that it can't be used for purposes other than tax evasion and money laundering, it doesn't disprove that is commonly used for this purpose and little else.
  - didntknowya 5y ago
    so you'd accept one anecdotal comment about a transaction without any details as a fact, versus the well known numerous transactions bitcoin has gained infamy from in the darknet markets- which supposedly is evidential enough for the FBI?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Geee 5y ago

Such an ignorant comment. There are hundreds of millions Bitcoin users globally, and only a very small fraction of them are criminals of any kind. And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world.

thomastjeffery 5y ago
I agree that that half of the comment was ignorant. The rest still stands.
handrous 5y ago
> And let's ignore the actual criminals who legally counterfeit US dollars to finance war all around the world. I've not heard of a legal counterfeiter. How's that work?
- Geee 5y ago
  The Federal Reserve has a legalized monopoly on counterfeiting US dollars. [0] [0] https://mises.org/library/fed-giant-counterfeiter https://mises.org/library/fed-giant-counterfeiter
  - handrous 5y ago
    Ah—you arrived there by redefining the word. Got it.
    - didntknowya 5y ago
      google always has a moving goalpost you can link to
cwkoss 5y ago
USD is the currency of choice for criminals.
Devasta 5y ago
Hundreds of millions in possession of bitcoin maybe, but the number using it for any legitimate purpose is a miniscule fraction of that. The vast majority are in it under the assumption that bigger rubes will come along later to buy it off them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

stiltzkin 5y ago

Seems you have really outdated info about Bitcoin, Bitcoin being not fungible is a great tool for analysing/tracking transactions. Money laundering and drugs use FIAT or Monero.