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For those of you responding skeptically to Lionhearted's question, I'm in the business of helping these people exit the United States. At any given point I hav

For those of you responding skeptically to Lionhearted's question, I'm in the business of helping these people exit the United States. At any given point I have four or five of these cases going. They go everywhere. Their money goes with them.

_delirium 15y ago
The total number for 2009 was 743, though, which is pretty small peanuts by the scale of the U.S. economy. It's not even large as a proportion of very-rich people.
- econgeeker 15y ago
  That's the number of people who renounced. And that number is going up dramatically, and I've heard that the published figures for renouncement are way under-reported. (as in here are lawyers who have more clients who have renounced than the government claims renounced in total.) But on both sides these are just claims. The number of people who simply moved their butts and their assets overseas is much higher. You can tell this is the case because the administration has been saber rattling for the last four years, and starting to work their way into currency controls. Did you know, in order to renounce, you have to get the permission of the government? They charge an exit tax too for your funds. This is a currency control and it is one of the things that marked the soviet union as a bad regime. If you can't move your money in and out of a country, then you're not likely to invest in that country. I'm not very rich, and I will renounce as soon as my second citizenship gets in. It will be easier for me because, not being very rich yet, I will be more likely to get permission of the government to give up my citizenship.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    Yeah, I'd support making it both easier to leave the U.S. as well as to enter it--- make both renunciation and green-card procurement easier. I think the U.S. would come out pretty well on overall balance there, because it's a fairly popular place to live, and is artificially keeping out many people who would like to live there. The evidence I can find is that the outward flow is a trickle rather than a flood (or even a modest current), though. Even if the 743 number is a 5x underestimate, that's still not much. I'm not sure it even balances the rich people flowing the other direction, e.g. the businessmen getting green cards under the ">$1m to invest" criterion (and no doubt there would be more of them if the green-card process were streamlined). I don't think the U.S. is particularly unique in making it hard to renounce citizenship, though perhaps it's for different reasons. Many countries make it very hard to renounce citizenship if they think you're doing it to get out of mandatory military service, for example. For economic reasons, many require that there no longer be any links with the country, e.g. you can't renounce German citizenship if you still own businesses or property in Germany. France seems to have an additional timing requirement, where you can only renounce French citizenship within the first year after acquiring a second citizenship, so dual nationals can't decide 10 years later to leave the country and renounce the French citizenship.
CaptainDecisive 15y ago
But for every one of those wealthy Americans who is looking for a way out there is at least one wealthy person, if not ten, from China, Malaysia, South Africa, well, as you say, everywhere - looking for a way in to the US. Their money comes with them. We live in a global economy, however the number of doors or opportunities that are opened to you is related to how wealthy and/or educated you are.

_delirium 15y ago

The total number for 2009 was 743, though, which is pretty small peanuts by the scale of the U.S. economy. It's not even large as a proportion of very-rich people.

econgeeker 15y ago
That's the number of people who renounced. And that number is going up dramatically, and I've heard that the published figures for renouncement are way under-reported. (as in here are lawyers who have more clients who have renounced than the government claims renounced in total.) But on both sides these are just claims. The number of people who simply moved their butts and their assets overseas is much higher. You can tell this is the case because the administration has been saber rattling for the last four years, and starting to work their way into currency controls. Did you know, in order to renounce, you have to get the permission of the government? They charge an exit tax too for your funds. This is a currency control and it is one of the things that marked the soviet union as a bad regime. If you can't move your money in and out of a country, then you're not likely to invest in that country. I'm not very rich, and I will renounce as soon as my second citizenship gets in. It will be easier for me because, not being very rich yet, I will be more likely to get permission of the government to give up my citizenship.
- _delirium 15y ago
  Yeah, I'd support making it both easier to leave the U.S. as well as to enter it--- make both renunciation and green-card procurement easier. I think the U.S. would come out pretty well on overall balance there, because it's a fairly popular place to live, and is artificially keeping out many people who would like to live there. The evidence I can find is that the outward flow is a trickle rather than a flood (or even a modest current), though. Even if the 743 number is a 5x underestimate, that's still not much. I'm not sure it even balances the rich people flowing the other direction, e.g. the businessmen getting green cards under the ">$1m to invest" criterion (and no doubt there would be more of them if the green-card process were streamlined). I don't think the U.S. is particularly unique in making it hard to renounce citizenship, though perhaps it's for different reasons. Many countries make it very hard to renounce citizenship if they think you're doing it to get out of mandatory military service, for example. For economic reasons, many require that there no longer be any links with the country, e.g. you can't renounce German citizenship if you still own businesses or property in Germany. France seems to have an additional timing requirement, where you can only renounce French citizenship within the first year after acquiring a second citizenship, so dual nationals can't decide 10 years later to leave the country and renounce the French citizenship.

CaptainDecisive 15y ago

But for every one of those wealthy Americans who is looking for a way out there is at least one wealthy person, if not ten, from China, Malaysia, South Africa, well, as you say, everywhere - looking for a way in to the US. Their money comes with them. We live in a global economy, however the number of doors or opportunities that are opened to you is related to how wealthy and/or educated you are.