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That's not some objective fact. Furthermore you realise that Hayek himself wasn't a democrat?
by cloudfifty 5y ago
That's not some objective fact. Furthermore you realise that Hayek himself wasn't a democrat?
- zepto 5y agoIt’s an empirical fact.
- cloudfifty 5y agoNo it's not. "Leads to" signifies that something turns into it. The regimes that are commonly referred to never turned authoritarian, they started authoritarian - much to Chomsky's and other libertarian socialists dismay.
- zepto 5y agoOk, I’ll give you that distinction. Socialism inevitably is authoritarian.
- cloudfifty 5y agoThat's luckily easy for anyone to discover is incorrect by a half-arsed google search and a somewhat honest attitude to learning.
- zepto 5y agoA Google search will tell you what people would like socialism to be. Empirical examples tell you what it is. You’ve already agreed with this.
- cloudfifty 5y agoStill not true.
- zepto 5y agoYou: “The regimes that are commonly referred to never turned authoritarian, they started authoritarian - much to Chomsky's and other libertarian socialists dismay.”
- cloudfifty 5y agoDidn't you get the hint with Chomsky being both a socialist and anti-authoritarian may mean that socialism is not just those regimes? I'll assume you're just being willfully obtuse at this point (and given your comment history, I'm not surprised).
- bart_spoon 5y agoIts not an objective fact in the sense that there is nothing rigid in political and economic science like we have in mathematics or physics, but yes, every instance of attempts at building socialist governments have been tied at the waist to authoritarianism. In all cases, they have resulted in collapse (USSR), limped along under authoritarian rule (Cuba, Venezuela, Madagascar), or have thrived after jettisoning actual socialist economic policies while maintaining heavy handed authoritarian rule (China, Vietnam). In all cases authoritarianism is propped up as a means to an end of achieving an equitable, socialist utopian state. But in all cases, the socialism has shriveled or died, while the authoritarianism remains. Perhaps one day there will actually be a socialist state that manages to successfully create the egalitarian society it promotes, without requiring heavy-handed authoritarianism to bring it about. But until then, the association between socialism and authoritarianism is about as well established over the last century as anything can be in the realms of political science and economics.
- cloudfifty 5y ago> every instance of attempts at building socialist governments have been tied at the waist to authoritarianism Hence the fierce insistence from large parts of the socialist movement throughout history that it must be radically democratic - otherwise oppression, rather than liberation will be the result.
- xyzzyz 5y agoWhich is why I recommended Hayek, as he convincingly argues that authoritarian oppression is non severable component of socialist economic system. He argues that the design and incentives inevitably lead to the same, authoritarian outcome. Experience of 20th century has repeatedly validated his predictions.
- sudosysgen 5y agoHe also makes the argument that authoritarianism is better than democracy from those very same principles, which as unconvincing as the other.