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There's a difference between trials and it being suitable for public use though, right? It is undeniably a horse dewormer, and has had some use on humans, but n

by onei 5y ago

There's a difference between trials and it being suitable for public use though, right? It is undeniably a horse dewormer, and has had some use on humans, but not as a covid treatment. For me, it's about preventing people that aren't medical professionals from self-medicating with a potentially harmful substance. Plus there's been some less than stellar suggestions of covid treatments in the past ranging from dubious to lethal. If it turns out to be safe, then doctors will no doubt prescribe it as necessary.

sprafa 5y ago
I would hope so. My point about “horse dewormer” is that some articles in the media list it as just that without mentioning at all that it is also human medication. Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves. Afaik the only difference between human and animal ivm are levels of impurity.
- sophacles 5y ago
  That's because people are literally buying and eating horse dewormer. Its in a package that says "horse dewormer" on it. It's sold at livestock stores in the "horse medicine" section. The media is 100% correct to call what people are poisoning themselves with "horse dewormer". I bet you get mad at the news for reporting rain because water exists in other forms, and has other ways of moving about besides rain right?
  - pwdisswordfish8 5y ago
    Did Joe Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" on it? You willingly ignored the salient parts of the comment you responded to (ironically providing more evidence of the very phenomenon that they're trying to discuss).
    - numeromancer 5y ago
      No, it was prescribed by his doctor. Which brings up another point: some pharmacies are refusing to fill it, even when prescribed by a doctor. If you want to place the blame for people getting "horse dewormer", such pharmacies deserve part of the blame.
      - sophacles 5y ago
        Too bad most of the people who want horse dewormer were the same people who wanted the "pharmacist conscience" laws that allow pharmacists to deny their veterinary prescriptions. Who would have thought that such a law would come back to bite them.
        pwdisswordfish8 5y ago
        Since you dodged the question, it's worth asking again. The complaint, stated by sprafa, is: "Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves." ... to which you responded, ignoring the complaint and doubling down, right before kicking it up a notch with a personal attack/shameless attempt to strawman ("I bet you get mad at the news for[...] right?"). So did Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" or not?
  - kragen 5y ago
    It's really hard to poison yourself with ivermectin if you're a vertebrate. Apparently the total number of poisoning cases in the US, a country of 330 million people, is about 500, and the vast majority of those cases had minor or no effects; people were just worried. So if you buy horse dewormer in a livestock store and take it, you'll probably still be fine. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-play-in-three https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-pl...
vorpalhex 5y ago
Calling ivermectin horse dewormer is like calling penicillin cow antibiotics or fish tank saver. It's in significant use in humans.
- OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
  It's in significant use in humans as a dewormer, though. It's used in humans to treat river blindness which is caused by a worm. It's also used for the prevention of worms in dogs. It's fair to call it a dewormer, even if you disagree with including the 'horse' part. It's not an anti-viral in any sense of the word.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Correct, and while it's use as an anti-viral has been noted pre-covid we don't understand what it's method of action is, or why it sometimes behaves as an anti-viral. I'm not recommending using drugs we don't understand or have a full picture of. I am recommending to stop calling it horse dewormer. At the very least call it an anti-parasitic in use in the 3rd and 2nd worlds.
    - SnowProblem 5y ago
      Two people in my circle were taking IVM pre-pandemic to treat rosacea and lyme disease. This is not an obscure drug in the 1st world. It also doesn't need to be an anti-viral to work on covid - it's already a general anti-inflammatory. Inflammation of the lungs is why people can't breath and often die, and that inflammation is due to the body's own immune response, not the virus itself. The virus is gone by that point. But our standard protocol at first symptoms does not include treating potential inflammation, so by the time people get to hospital it's often too late. It's not good.
    - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
      You can drop the '3rd and 2nd worlds' part. It's used for the treatment of parasites in the 1st world as well. I'm not a infectious diseases expert, but to my knowledge the viruses that it's been found to be effective against are all mosquito borne; it's just as likely related to it's toxic action on mosquitos in general. Still, it's all baseless conjecture on everyone's part. If someone cares to throw money at it, it's something that can be investigated. At the end of the day just get the widely available vaccine and move on with life, like you would for other viruses that we've got vaccines for. I feel like we're all making this way harder than it has to be just so we can all continue to yell at each other.

by onei 5y ago

sprafa 5y ago

I would hope so. My point about “horse dewormer” is that some articles in the media list it as just that without mentioning at all that it is also human medication. Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves. Afaik the only difference between human and animal ivm are levels of impurity.

sophacles 5y ago
That's because people are literally buying and eating horse dewormer. Its in a package that says "horse dewormer" on it. It's sold at livestock stores in the "horse medicine" section. The media is 100% correct to call what people are poisoning themselves with "horse dewormer". I bet you get mad at the news for reporting rain because water exists in other forms, and has other ways of moving about besides rain right?
- pwdisswordfish8 5y ago
  Did Joe Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" on it? You willingly ignored the salient parts of the comment you responded to (ironically providing more evidence of the very phenomenon that they're trying to discuss).
  - numeromancer 5y ago
    No, it was prescribed by his doctor. Which brings up another point: some pharmacies are refusing to fill it, even when prescribed by a doctor. If you want to place the blame for people getting "horse dewormer", such pharmacies deserve part of the blame.
    - sophacles 5y ago
      Too bad most of the people who want horse dewormer were the same people who wanted the "pharmacist conscience" laws that allow pharmacists to deny their veterinary prescriptions. Who would have thought that such a law would come back to bite them.
      - pwdisswordfish8 5y ago
        Since you dodged the question, it's worth asking again. The complaint, stated by sprafa, is: "Look at the recent articles about Joe Rogan, they couldn’t stop themselves." ... to which you responded, ignoring the complaint and doubling down, right before kicking it up a notch with a personal attack/shameless attempt to strawman ("I bet you get mad at the news for[...] right?"). So did Rogan literally buy and eat something from a package that says "horse dewormer" or not?
- kragen 5y ago
  It's really hard to poison yourself with ivermectin if you're a vertebrate. Apparently the total number of poisoning cases in the US, a country of 330 million people, is about 500, and the vast majority of those cases had minor or no effects; people were just worried. So if you buy horse dewormer in a livestock store and take it, you'll probably still be fine. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-play-in-three https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/too-good-to-check-a-pl...

vorpalhex 5y ago

Calling ivermectin horse dewormer is like calling penicillin cow antibiotics or fish tank saver. It's in significant use in humans.

OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
It's in significant use in humans as a dewormer, though. It's used in humans to treat river blindness which is caused by a worm. It's also used for the prevention of worms in dogs. It's fair to call it a dewormer, even if you disagree with including the 'horse' part. It's not an anti-viral in any sense of the word.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Correct, and while it's use as an anti-viral has been noted pre-covid we don't understand what it's method of action is, or why it sometimes behaves as an anti-viral. I'm not recommending using drugs we don't understand or have a full picture of. I am recommending to stop calling it horse dewormer. At the very least call it an anti-parasitic in use in the 3rd and 2nd worlds.
  - SnowProblem 5y ago
    Two people in my circle were taking IVM pre-pandemic to treat rosacea and lyme disease. This is not an obscure drug in the 1st world. It also doesn't need to be an anti-viral to work on covid - it's already a general anti-inflammatory. Inflammation of the lungs is why people can't breath and often die, and that inflammation is due to the body's own immune response, not the virus itself. The virus is gone by that point. But our standard protocol at first symptoms does not include treating potential inflammation, so by the time people get to hospital it's often too late. It's not good.
  - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
    You can drop the '3rd and 2nd worlds' part. It's used for the treatment of parasites in the 1st world as well. I'm not a infectious diseases expert, but to my knowledge the viruses that it's been found to be effective against are all mosquito borne; it's just as likely related to it's toxic action on mosquitos in general. Still, it's all baseless conjecture on everyone's part. If someone cares to throw money at it, it's something that can be investigated. At the end of the day just get the widely available vaccine and move on with life, like you would for other viruses that we've got vaccines for. I feel like we're all making this way harder than it has to be just so we can all continue to yell at each other.