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> If you look at the top 10 distance runners, they're all from Ethiopia and Kenya. But as you look further down the list into the top 100, you start to see Amer
by notafraudster 5y ago
> If you look at the top 10 distance runners, they're all from Ethiopia and Kenya. But as you look further down the list into the top 100, you start to see Americans and others. Furthermore, the Americans' times are really close to the Ethiopians and Kenyans.
> Because it doesn't say anything about the individual people, who vary much more than the difference in averages.
It's not clear it says anything about the difference in averages. Say someone is born in Syria with great genetic potential to be a distance runner, you might expect they are unlikely to "live up to that potential" because of all the obvious things that get in their way.
Is it not possible that individuals who are biologically very well suited for distance running in Kenya have a better chance of ending up as distance runners than they do in America, because Kenya specializes in distance running and America does not, and because America actually specializes in other comparable things that are more remunerative? Or perhaps that in Kenya, amateur athleticism is a relatively lucrative career compared to outside options whereas in America it is not.
Let me model this mathematically; say countries are homogeneous such that all persons born in the country j are characterized by a two parameter model that for the sake of argument we'll take to be normal: mean_j and sd_j. A draw from this distribution assigns natural talent theta_i to each person i. If they choose to train and run, we see theta_i, so the observed outcome is: y_i = D_i theta + (1 - D_i) 0. Thus training to run is a treatment (D_i); if you are treated you reveal your talent theta, if you are control, you don't run and no one knows. Then the characteristics of the population as a whole are characterized by mean, standard deviation, and n (population) and the observed distribution is just the distribution of y_i.
In all countries D_i = f_j(theta_i, p_j); p_j refers to the fraction of the country that runs; in a country where everyone runs, the function is constant 1. In a country where runners are a random sample f_j has no theta_i term. You could imagine other functions that are positively or negatively correlated with talent. An easily implementation of this would be to draw a bernoulli variable with p_j and some correlation rho_j with theta_i; you can do this with a copula or the analytic formula for biserial normal-bernoulli correlation, but let's say the detals of the function are irrelevant.
Finally, competition reveals max(y_i) for a country, and thus for the planet.
It is easy to find a world where the identity of the winning country j is the country that has the highest mean. It's also possible that the identity reflects mean-sd-n (e.g. all countries have the same average but some have more variation; or more births = more outliers). But it's also easy to assign viable p_j or f_j(theta_i) p_j such that the "wrong" country wins because of cultural factors.
It's true the model is a toy model (countries aren't homogeneous, talent may well not be normal, theta is not perfectly revealed and training has varying degrees of quality, individual race times have stochasticity), but even accepting the toy limitations wherein every cultural factor goes through f_j(theta_i) and p_j, it's clear we don't have a bead on mean_j.
So, like, what now?
- armchairhacker 5y agoI don't follow your argument well. If a country trains more people to get into distance running, it could definitely skew their average even if their etnicity has bad running genetics. But "doesn't say anything about the individual people" point is that, if you take any one person, no matter what their parents' genetics and environment say (barring extreme examples), they have a chance to become a great distance runner. A very slim chance, but a chance. Similarly, there are people born from poor families who show a suprising amount of intelligence.
- notafraudster 5y agoI'm not really sure how to re-state any clearer -- just try to follow the math -- but my underlying claim was that "differences in distribution don't tell you anything about individuals" misses the point: yes, of course differences in distributions don't tell you about a given individua. I'm saying observed differences in winners don't provide very strong evidence for _differences in distributions_. There are several issues: winning reveals the maximum of the distribution, not the mean or sd. An observed pattern of one country winning might reflect different distributional means. It might reflect same means and different standard deviations. It might reflect that the number of observations is larger and thus the probability of an outlier at a certain number of sd above the mean is higher. But beyond that, there are also obvious non-genetic processes that even in a toy distribution can produce a winning country that has lower genetic capability. The entire enterprise of saying "Kenyans win running, so Kenyans are more genetically talented at running" is unsupported.
- spiralx 5y ago> The entire enterprise of saying "Kenyans win running, so Kenyans are more genetically talented at running" is unsupported. Or as my father once framed the argument: "It's because they've only recently come out of the jungle right" and when I yelled at him explained his reasoning with, "That's not racist, stands to reason they'd be better at physical things, we've evolved over millions of years to not need that sort of thing any more." at which point my mum told me not to call my dad a racist and to leave the dinner table, which I most certainly did. It's amazing looking back how racist the 80s were when I was growing up. The framing has gone from outright racism that was "common knowledge" everyone accepted, and been dog-whistled into this seemingly academic debate about the effects of genetic differences between population groups, which is so far removed from the original that it's hard to tell who really is "just asking questions" and who wants to talk about "coming down from the jungle" without being labelled a racist. On a more technical level, was your equation meant to be y_i = D_i theta_i + (1 - D_i) 0 i.e. "theta" was supposed to be "theta_i"