5 ms·

> I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the sub

> I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the substance of the discussion to know it includes discussion of what healthy masculinity is. Here's an easy-to-digest example: https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused-about-the-difference-between-Q28CKMPT6 https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused... > Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femininity-is-real-and-its-time-to-talk-about-it-1952023.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femini... https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-examples-of-toxic-femininity-we-dont-talk-about-enough/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro... https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need-to-talk-about-toxic-femininity-at-work/?sh=495c48282769 https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need... https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-examples https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-exam... https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under-addressed-gender-calamity/article_634951f6-81dd-11eb-b9ed-5b36414b3c16.html https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under... If you really think that femininity doesn't come under the microscope, then one can only assume you have no substantial familiarity with feminism.

heurisko 5y ago
> Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...
- DasIch 5y ago
  The discourse around these kinds of topics comes almost entirely from feminists at least the part that is constructive. That inevitably leads to some problems being ignored as they are not so interesting to feminists. I don't think you can fault them for that. Gender norms that are criticised by feminists are in real life frequently re-enforced by women for example. Even feminists like much of the political left are also fragmented and have differing opinions. This lack of a consensus combined with an expectation to behave in a specific way and a group that can be somewhat trigger happy in going from "statistically this group of people is privileged" to "this person from this group is privileged" is I think deeply problematic and challenging to navigate as a men. I also think it's incredibly stupid from political standpoint. Unfortunately it's difficult to engage in such discussions in a constructive way because they are very attractive to people who see feminists as an enemy.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    I usually try and avoid the discussion online, as it is polarising. One area I do think is interesting, is the issue of uncollected child maintenance payments (at least in the UK). [1] This has not had a campaign behind it, in the same way as the "Gender pay gap" has had, yet just also affects the material circumstances of many women. I imagine it could be one issue where there might be agreement on, between those who lean towards "traditional gender roles" and some feminist organisations. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/silence-scandal-unpaid-child-maintenance https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/silenc...
- wwweston 5y ago
  > I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. Forbes and Psychology Today are long-tail low-relevance now? > What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity Something along these lines is said in many substantial discussions of masculinity (including the one I pointed to in GP). You want other examples? https://umatter.princeton.edu/respect-matters/healthy-masculinity https://umatter.princeton.edu/respect-matters/healthy-mascul... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2mzxeViCko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2mzxeViCko https://www.buzzfeed.com/sydrobinson1/examples-of-positive-masculinity https://www.buzzfeed.com/sydrobinson1/examples-of-positive-m... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/becoming-men-teaching-positive-masculinity/361739/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/becoming-... Nobody is attacking competence as toxic, or support of family as toxic. What is actually critiqued is a normalization of social violence, commenting on bullying or assault with "oh, boys will be boys," dismissal of feelings with "walk it off," the idea that real men don't go to therapy or turn to people for emotional help, etc etc. One can only think of that as a general attack on masculinity if... that's what you think masculinity is. Which sounds bona fide toxic to me.
belorn 5y ago
All pejorative has a literal interpretation that is not pejorative. The question generally lies in how it will get interpreted and what implied message it carries. In most cases there exist a non-pejorative word that can used as a substitute which does not carry the same disrespectful connotation and hostility. As the pejoration of the word occurs, the assumptions that occurs is that continued usage has the intention of hostility.
- wwweston 5y ago
  > All pejorative has a literal interpretation that is not pejorative. Even assuming that's true, it doesn't follow that every literal interpretation should be or is understood as pejorative, which leads to the question of why this one should be understood that way. Given that toxic masculinity has specific definitions and specific criticisms to offer that distinguish critically targeted behavior AND also has associated discussion affirming desirable masculine behavior, it makes much more sense to treat it as a specific technique than a general attack on masculinity. Unless, of course, you think that things like bullying or other forms of social violence for the purpose of establishing personal dominance or personal entertainment is part and parcel with masculinity. Which sounds kindof, I don't know... poisonous or something to me.
  - belorn 5y ago
    Pejoration is not prevented by a specific definition, and there is many examples of perfectly fine words being turned into a pejorative. As an example there is a very nice defined alternative word for happiness that was commonly used in songs which has no perfect modern substitute, and yet because of a different interpretation this word can't be used because those hearing it will interpret a disrespectful connotation and hostility. > bullying or other forms of social violence for the purpose of establishing personal dominance or personal entertainment is part and parcel with masculinity For those who think neither of those has anything to do with masculinity, using the word masculinity to describe it would be wrong. One could be a bit colorful to call it a poisonous use of words, ie injecting an harmful substance into the language. A few decades ago researchers looked at how language get used in conflicts, and they had a major discover. The most effective way to enable people to attack other people is to describe other human being as being less than human. Toxic waste. Insects. Poison. Garbage. Language that dehumanizing groups of people and dehumanizing their behavior is almost a requirement in order for human on human violence.

heurisko 5y ago

> Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...

DasIch 5y ago
The discourse around these kinds of topics comes almost entirely from feminists at least the part that is constructive. That inevitably leads to some problems being ignored as they are not so interesting to feminists. I don't think you can fault them for that. Gender norms that are criticised by feminists are in real life frequently re-enforced by women for example. Even feminists like much of the political left are also fragmented and have differing opinions. This lack of a consensus combined with an expectation to behave in a specific way and a group that can be somewhat trigger happy in going from "statistically this group of people is privileged" to "this person from this group is privileged" is I think deeply problematic and challenging to navigate as a men. I also think it's incredibly stupid from political standpoint. Unfortunately it's difficult to engage in such discussions in a constructive way because they are very attractive to people who see feminists as an enemy.
- heurisko 5y ago
  I usually try and avoid the discussion online, as it is polarising. One area I do think is interesting, is the issue of uncollected child maintenance payments (at least in the UK). [1] This has not had a campaign behind it, in the same way as the "Gender pay gap" has had, yet just also affects the material circumstances of many women. I imagine it could be one issue where there might be agreement on, between those who lean towards "traditional gender roles" and some feminist organisations. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/silence-scandal-unpaid-child-maintenance https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/silenc...
wwweston 5y ago
> I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. Forbes and Psychology Today are long-tail low-relevance now? > What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity Something along these lines is said in many substantial discussions of masculinity (including the one I pointed to in GP). You want other examples? https://umatter.princeton.edu/respect-matters/healthy-masculinity https://umatter.princeton.edu/respect-matters/healthy-mascul... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2mzxeViCko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2mzxeViCko https://www.buzzfeed.com/sydrobinson1/examples-of-positive-masculinity https://www.buzzfeed.com/sydrobinson1/examples-of-positive-m... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/becoming-men-teaching-positive-masculinity/361739/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/becoming-... Nobody is attacking competence as toxic, or support of family as toxic. What is actually critiqued is a normalization of social violence, commenting on bullying or assault with "oh, boys will be boys," dismissal of feelings with "walk it off," the idea that real men don't go to therapy or turn to people for emotional help, etc etc. One can only think of that as a general attack on masculinity if... that's what you think masculinity is. Which sounds bona fide toxic to me.

belorn 5y ago

All pejorative has a literal interpretation that is not pejorative. The question generally lies in how it will get interpreted and what implied message it carries. In most cases there exist a non-pejorative word that can used as a substitute which does not carry the same disrespectful connotation and hostility. As the pejoration of the word occurs, the assumptions that occurs is that continued usage has the intention of hostility.

wwweston 5y ago
> All pejorative has a literal interpretation that is not pejorative. Even assuming that's true, it doesn't follow that every literal interpretation should be or is understood as pejorative, which leads to the question of why this one should be understood that way. Given that toxic masculinity has specific definitions and specific criticisms to offer that distinguish critically targeted behavior AND also has associated discussion affirming desirable masculine behavior, it makes much more sense to treat it as a specific technique than a general attack on masculinity. Unless, of course, you think that things like bullying or other forms of social violence for the purpose of establishing personal dominance or personal entertainment is part and parcel with masculinity. Which sounds kindof, I don't know... poisonous or something to me.
- belorn 5y ago
  Pejoration is not prevented by a specific definition, and there is many examples of perfectly fine words being turned into a pejorative. As an example there is a very nice defined alternative word for happiness that was commonly used in songs which has no perfect modern substitute, and yet because of a different interpretation this word can't be used because those hearing it will interpret a disrespectful connotation and hostility. > bullying or other forms of social violence for the purpose of establishing personal dominance or personal entertainment is part and parcel with masculinity For those who think neither of those has anything to do with masculinity, using the word masculinity to describe it would be wrong. One could be a bit colorful to call it a poisonous use of words, ie injecting an harmful substance into the language. A few decades ago researchers looked at how language get used in conflicts, and they had a major discover. The most effective way to enable people to attack other people is to describe other human being as being less than human. Toxic waste. Insects. Poison. Garbage. Language that dehumanizing groups of people and dehumanizing their behavior is almost a requirement in order for human on human violence.