5 ms·

I don't know anyone who believes this. Words mean what they're intended to mean and interpreted to mean, and that's how it's used in practice. Claiming otherwis

I don't know anyone who believes this. Words mean what they're intended to mean and interpreted to mean, and that's how it's used in practice. Claiming otherwise is just a bald-faced "nuh-uh" when people who use the term are confronted with the double standard. If there wasn't at least a little bit of complicity in it being interpreted as a general diss on masculinity, the term would never have caught on, or a different term would have been chosen in the first place. In the face of repeated misunderstandings, people using the term would pick a new one. They haven't done that. Why? It seems to me that they are quite happy to be "misunderstood" 95% of the time. The gender swapped equivalent seems to be "internalised misogyny". Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Do you think I could get away with calling any obviously bad behaviour associated with femininity, "toxic femininity", at all? I don't think I could. It's widely considered by men to be an insulting term, and if people who use it don't want to insult people, they should pick another one. They don't though, which is telling.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Yeah, but just man up and handle it. That's non-toxic.
- john_fushi 5y ago
  Telling someone to "man up" is a telltale sign of toxic masculinity.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Why? Isn't it the opposite? Doesn't it refer to the best of what is masculine?
wwweston 5y ago
> I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the substance of the discussion to know it includes discussion of what healthy masculinity is. Here's an easy-to-digest example: https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused-about-the-difference-between-Q28CKMPT6 https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused... > Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femininity-is-real-and-its-time-to-talk-about-it-1952023.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femini... https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-examples-of-toxic-femininity-we-dont-talk-about-enough/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro... https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need-to-talk-about-toxic-femininity-at-work/?sh=495c48282769 https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need... https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-examples https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-exam... https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under-addressed-gender-calamity/article_634951f6-81dd-11eb-b9ed-5b36414b3c16.html https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under... If you really think that femininity doesn't come under the microscope, then one can only assume you have no substantial familiarity with feminism.
- heurisko 5y ago
  > Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...
  - DasIch 5y ago
    The discourse around these kinds of topics comes almost entirely from feminists at least the part that is constructive. That inevitably leads to some problems being ignored as they are not so interesting to feminists. I don't think you can fault them for that. Gender norms that are criticised by feminists are in real life frequently re-enforced by women for example. Even feminists like much of the political left are also fragmented and have differing opinions. This lack of a consensus combined with an expectation to behave in a specific way and a group that can be somewhat trigger happy in going from "statistically this group of people is privileged" to "this person from this group is privileged" is I think deeply problematic and challenging to navigate as a men. I also think it's incredibly stupid from political standpoint. Unfortunately it's difficult to engage in such discussions in a constructive way because they are very attractive to people who see feminists as an enemy.
    - heurisko 5y ago

dr_dshiv 5y ago

Yeah, but just man up and handle it. That's non-toxic.

john_fushi 5y ago
Telling someone to "man up" is a telltale sign of toxic masculinity.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Why? Isn't it the opposite? Doesn't it refer to the best of what is masculine?

wwweston 5y ago

> I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the substance of the discussion to know it includes discussion of what healthy masculinity is. Here's an easy-to-digest example: https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused-about-the-difference-between-Q28CKMPT6 https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused... > Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femininity-is-real-and-its-time-to-talk-about-it-1952023.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femini... https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-examples-of-toxic-femininity-we-dont-talk-about-enough/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro... https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need-to-talk-about-toxic-femininity-at-work/?sh=495c48282769 https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need... https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-examples https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-exam... https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under-addressed-gender-calamity/article_634951f6-81dd-11eb-b9ed-5b36414b3c16.html https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under... If you really think that femininity doesn't come under the microscope, then one can only assume you have no substantial familiarity with feminism.

heurisko 5y ago
> Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...
- DasIch 5y ago
  The discourse around these kinds of topics comes almost entirely from feminists at least the part that is constructive. That inevitably leads to some problems being ignored as they are not so interesting to feminists. I don't think you can fault them for that. Gender norms that are criticised by feminists are in real life frequently re-enforced by women for example. Even feminists like much of the political left are also fragmented and have differing opinions. This lack of a consensus combined with an expectation to behave in a specific way and a group that can be somewhat trigger happy in going from "statistically this group of people is privileged" to "this person from this group is privileged" is I think deeply problematic and challenging to navigate as a men. I also think it's incredibly stupid from political standpoint. Unfortunately it's difficult to engage in such discussions in a constructive way because they are very attractive to people who see feminists as an enemy.
  - heurisko 5y ago