3 ms·

> --Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited Citation needed, especially given that there are enormous differences in intelligence between peopl

by Tade0 5y ago

> --Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited Citation needed, especially given that there are enormous differences in intelligence between people who acquired speech and those who didn't.

tgv 5y ago
I think the number of people that haven't acquired overt communication is so low, it can hardly affect the average.
- Tade0 5y ago
  My point is that if you can produce twins, one of which will be taught how to speak, read and write and the other not and the difference in intelligence between them will be so significant, then the genetic component can't possibly amount for most of intelligence. Yes, it's the nature vs nurture argument all over again, but I think that regarding intelligence it's far from settled.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tgv 5y ago
    Well, that's why I wanted to know how intelligence was operationalized. But even in your Gedankenexperiment, there are ways to estimate heritability of intelligence: you'd need 100s similar cases, and, e.g., test them on puzzle solving and learning skills. Edit: sorry, I asked that question in another thread...
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Yeah, as the other child comment says I'm not sure what you're getting at with speech acquisition. Here's a study I plucked: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/
- bjourne 5y ago
  Here is a quote from the study: > However, for intelligence, heritability increases linearly, from (approximately) 20% in infancy to 40% in adolescence, and to 60% in adulthood. Some evidence suggests that heritability might increase to as much as 80% in later adulthood but then decline to about 60% after age 80. It does not corroborate the claim "Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited".
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    That sounds right on the money to me? Variance in all traits is higher in childhood. The idea is that you grow into your mostly pre-determined self.
    - bjourne 5y ago
      No, it's not on the money. Do you really not see the numerical discrepancy?
deltasixeight 5y ago
I hope this need for a citation comes from genuine curiosity and not some misguided ideological want to uphold the notion of equality in intelligence. It just doesn't make sense given a more macroscopic view of things. If inheritance obviously controls the difference in intelligence between the human brain and the dog brain, or the cat brain, or the monkey brain, what black magic makes it so that among humans themselves inheritance controls very little of intelligence? The 70% - 80% statistic seems like a ballpark estimate he pulled out of a anecdotal conclusion based off of a broad spectrum knowledge of the related scientific research. You likely aren't going to find a citation that proves this claim definitively. It does not mean that his point is incredulous nor does it mean that his point isn't part of common sense. His point makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. The same sense as the fact that the covid vaccine protects against the virus even though for the longest time it was NEVER FDA approved (aka no strong citations). The conclusion was obvious despite not meeting the stringent verification of the FDA and many people were able to arrive at this conclusion without the science. Yet many people refused to believe the efficacy of the vaccine due to their political ideology. I believe there's a similar biased attitude coming from the far left side of thinking. The unwillingness to see that the science and common sense points to an inescapable conclusion. There is no unseen magical force that makes all races, all genders and all peoples equal. There are differences, and the differences are biological and obvious. Like literally genes control how ugly and how tall you are but not intelligence at all? By some crazy magic intelligence is the one thing that isn't at all influenced that much by genetics? Seriously, which viewpoint is more realistic here? Seriously the same ultra left people who were calling out the anti-vacc people as stupid and unintelligent for refusing the vaccine are unable to see the exact same kind of ideological stupidity within themselves.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  Yep, I agree with basically all of this. A reasonable rhetorical move when speaking to science-deniers about inheritance is, "Do you have a principled way of telling people from rocks on the basis of intelligence, then?"

by Tade0 5y ago

tgv 5y ago

I think the number of people that haven't acquired overt communication is so low, it can hardly affect the average.

Tade0 5y ago
My point is that if you can produce twins, one of which will be taught how to speak, read and write and the other not and the difference in intelligence between them will be so significant, then the genetic component can't possibly amount for most of intelligence. Yes, it's the nature vs nurture argument all over again, but I think that regarding intelligence it's far from settled.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tgv 5y ago
  Well, that's why I wanted to know how intelligence was operationalized. But even in your Gedankenexperiment, there are ways to estimate heritability of intelligence: you'd need 100s similar cases, and, e.g., test them on puzzle solving and learning skills. Edit: sorry, I asked that question in another thread...

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

Yeah, as the other child comment says I'm not sure what you're getting at with speech acquisition. Here's a study I plucked: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

bjourne 5y ago
Here is a quote from the study: > However, for intelligence, heritability increases linearly, from (approximately) 20% in infancy to 40% in adolescence, and to 60% in adulthood. Some evidence suggests that heritability might increase to as much as 80% in later adulthood but then decline to about 60% after age 80. It does not corroborate the claim "Intelligence is largely (~70-80% of variance) inherited".
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  That sounds right on the money to me? Variance in all traits is higher in childhood. The idea is that you grow into your mostly pre-determined self.
  - bjourne 5y ago
    No, it's not on the money. Do you really not see the numerical discrepancy?

deltasixeight 5y ago

I hope this need for a citation comes from genuine curiosity and not some misguided ideological want to uphold the notion of equality in intelligence. It just doesn't make sense given a more macroscopic view of things. If inheritance obviously controls the difference in intelligence between the human brain and the dog brain, or the cat brain, or the monkey brain, what black magic makes it so that among humans themselves inheritance controls very little of intelligence? The 70% - 80% statistic seems like a ballpark estimate he pulled out of a anecdotal conclusion based off of a broad spectrum knowledge of the related scientific research. You likely aren't going to find a citation that proves this claim definitively. It does not mean that his point is incredulous nor does it mean that his point isn't part of common sense. His point makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. The same sense as the fact that the covid vaccine protects against the virus even though for the longest time it was NEVER FDA approved (aka no strong citations). The conclusion was obvious despite not meeting the stringent verification of the FDA and many people were able to arrive at this conclusion without the science. Yet many people refused to believe the efficacy of the vaccine due to their political ideology. I believe there's a similar biased attitude coming from the far left side of thinking. The unwillingness to see that the science and common sense points to an inescapable conclusion. There is no unseen magical force that makes all races, all genders and all peoples equal. There are differences, and the differences are biological and obvious. Like literally genes control how ugly and how tall you are but not intelligence at all? By some crazy magic intelligence is the one thing that isn't at all influenced that much by genetics? Seriously, which viewpoint is more realistic here? Seriously the same ultra left people who were calling out the anti-vacc people as stupid and unintelligent for refusing the vaccine are unable to see the exact same kind of ideological stupidity within themselves.

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Yep, I agree with basically all of this. A reasonable rhetorical move when speaking to science-deniers about inheritance is, "Do you have a principled way of telling people from rocks on the basis of intelligence, then?"