3 ms·

It seems that Saudi Arabia or Bahrain’s regimes tend not to get called 'illegitimate', so 'not democratic' would not imply 'illegitimate'. I think it’s more li

by dpwm 5y ago

It seems that Saudi Arabia or Bahrain’s regimes tend not to get called 'illegitimate', so 'not democratic' would not imply 'illegitimate'. I think it’s more like this: Governments the US doesn’t like very much are 'illegitimate' because 'not liberal democracies'; regimes the US does like are 'important allies' or otherwise not talked about. The whole 'not democratic' thing is more like a type of post-hoc justification for what, to many, looks like blatant imperialism. It would appear it is successful at least some of the time.

simonh 5y ago
Legitimacy is more about representing the people and ruling with consent. It's a spectrum, not a binary. The Saudi royal family have a patronage system in place that funnels money down to the regions and the tribes in return for loyalty. The country has no democratic traditions or expectations. For all they're a horrible dynasty of murderous autocrats, it's actually not that simple to argue that they don't rule with consent. As governments get more oppressive and arbitrary in their exercise of power, it becomes harder for them to make credible claims of legitimacy. I'm not saying the Saudi government is legitimate, but it is possible for it to do things that increase or decrease it's relative legitimacy. Increase consultation and individual freedoms? More legitimate. Crack down on peaceful protests or oppress minorities? Less legitimate.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  The strongest signal here is US ally vs adversary. Everything else is fluff in comparison. Saudi Arabia does not get called illegitimate, but Cuba does. Pinochet was 'legitimate'.
  - steve76 5y ago
    When humans started to enact laws that limited harm and sought not to add to it, and fought wars to reduce enemies and not make them, that's when the first legitimate governments were formed. Thousands of years ago we found this out. If you are making things worst, go away. No one wants you around. That's all you have to do. There's a big backdrop among the Saudis, like 9/11, and Pinochet, like the Cuban Missile Crisis. It's okay to devolve back into an animal when dealing with barbarians, with trial by ordeal and wager of battle, and then return back into a lawful human. Rules only work if people follow them.

by dpwm 5y ago

simonh 5y ago

Legitimacy is more about representing the people and ruling with consent. It's a spectrum, not a binary. The Saudi royal family have a patronage system in place that funnels money down to the regions and the tribes in return for loyalty. The country has no democratic traditions or expectations. For all they're a horrible dynasty of murderous autocrats, it's actually not that simple to argue that they don't rule with consent. As governments get more oppressive and arbitrary in their exercise of power, it becomes harder for them to make credible claims of legitimacy. I'm not saying the Saudi government is legitimate, but it is possible for it to do things that increase or decrease it's relative legitimacy. Increase consultation and individual freedoms? More legitimate. Crack down on peaceful protests or oppress minorities? Less legitimate.

refenestrator 5y ago
The strongest signal here is US ally vs adversary. Everything else is fluff in comparison. Saudi Arabia does not get called illegitimate, but Cuba does. Pinochet was 'legitimate'.
- steve76 5y ago
  When humans started to enact laws that limited harm and sought not to add to it, and fought wars to reduce enemies and not make them, that's when the first legitimate governments were formed. Thousands of years ago we found this out. If you are making things worst, go away. No one wants you around. That's all you have to do. There's a big backdrop among the Saudis, like 9/11, and Pinochet, like the Cuban Missile Crisis. It's okay to devolve back into an animal when dealing with barbarians, with trial by ordeal and wager of battle, and then return back into a lawful human. Rules only work if people follow them.