6 ms·

The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic.

by DasIch 5y ago

doubleunplussed 5y ago
I don't know anyone who believes this. Words mean what they're intended to mean and interpreted to mean, and that's how it's used in practice. Claiming otherwise is just a bald-faced "nuh-uh" when people who use the term are confronted with the double standard. If there wasn't at least a little bit of complicity in it being interpreted as a general diss on masculinity, the term would never have caught on, or a different term would have been chosen in the first place. In the face of repeated misunderstandings, people using the term would pick a new one. They haven't done that. Why? It seems to me that they are quite happy to be "misunderstood" 95% of the time. The gender swapped equivalent seems to be "internalised misogyny". Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Do you think I could get away with calling any obviously bad behaviour associated with femininity, "toxic femininity", at all? I don't think I could. It's widely considered by men to be an insulting term, and if people who use it don't want to insult people, they should pick another one. They don't though, which is telling.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Yeah, but just man up and handle it. That's non-toxic.
  - john_fushi 5y ago
    Telling someone to "man up" is a telltale sign of toxic masculinity.
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      Why? Isn't it the opposite? Doesn't it refer to the best of what is masculine?
- wwweston 5y ago
  > I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the substance of the discussion to know it includes discussion of what healthy masculinity is. Here's an easy-to-digest example: https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused-about-the-difference-between-Q28CKMPT6 https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused... > Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femininity-is-real-and-its-time-to-talk-about-it-1952023.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femini... https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-examples-of-toxic-femininity-we-dont-talk-about-enough/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro... https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need-to-talk-about-toxic-femininity-at-work/?sh=495c48282769 https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need... https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-examples https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-exam... https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under-addressed-gender-calamity/article_634951f6-81dd-11eb-b9ed-5b36414b3c16.html https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under... If you really think that femininity doesn't come under the microscope, then one can only assume you have no substantial familiarity with feminism.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    > Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...
heurisko 5y ago
Yet, as there is only the narrative of "toxic masculinity" and not also discussion of "toxic femininity", the term implies masculinity can turn toxic in a way femininity can't. There is a Wikipedia page on toxic masculinity, but not one on toxic femininity (it redirects to "Internalised sexism"). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#%22Toxic_femininity%22 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#%22Toxic...
tayo42 5y ago
My first impulse is to agree but thinking about it more what positives are there to take away from masculinity. Is any feature of being masculine that is really desirable? I guess I think the whole idea of trying to be masculine to be kind of lame...
- evilos 5y ago
  There are plenty of positive traits that are associated with Masculinity: Bravery, Boldness, Self-Sufficiency, Discipline, Self-Assured, Skilled, Strong, etc. Of course this does not mean that these traits are somehow exclusive to or owned by Masculinity.
- DasIch 5y ago
  > Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods. Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity Much of that sounds positive to me. I think the toxicity primarily comes from people caring primarily about appearance. For example by trying to avoid being seen as weak or by trying to appear strong relative to other people by making them appear to be weak.
the_third_wave 5y ago
That might be the "theory" (a word which does some heavy lifting in venues infected by "critical theory") but in practice it comes down to straight males and traditional male virtues being "toxic".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 5y ago
> The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic. I much the same way that “unusually large microbe” does not imply that microbes are generally unusually large. The “‘toxic masculinity’ means masculinity is uniformly toxic” thing is a reading so tendentious as to be incompatible with good faith.
lelanthran 5y ago
> The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic. That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Do you have a link to a place "toxic masculinity" is used to describe a minority subset of the male population?
- s5300 5y ago
  > That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Sounds like you've managed to get yourself living in quite the bubble/echo chamber. Go explore the world dude.
  - blueflow 5y ago
    I'm unaware of any social circles use the term "toxic masculinity" and are not using it to smear men. People outside of those bubbles do not use the term at all, probably because its pretty offensive to males.
thinkingemote 5y ago
That's how it's used and understood though. I agree it was never intended to, but the reality is different. It should be dumped and a new term used.
teddyh 5y ago
This is another very good example of a ‘motte-and-bailey’ term. The term means whatever you want it to mean, at any given moment. When the term is attacked, it retreats to mean only the toxic parts of masculinity. When not attacked, it means the inherent toxicity of all masculinity.

The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic.

by DasIch 5y ago

The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic.

I don't know anyone who believes this. Words mean what they're intended to mean and interpreted to mean, and that's how it's used in practice. Claiming otherwise is just a bald-faced "nuh-uh" when people who use the term are confronted with the double standard. If there wasn't at least a little bit of complicity in it being interpreted as a general diss on masculinity, the term would never have caught on, or a different term would have been chosen in the first place. In the face of repeated misunderstandings, people using the term would pick a new one. They haven't done that. Why? It seems to me that they are quite happy to be "misunderstood" 95% of the time. The gender swapped equivalent seems to be "internalised misogyny". Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Do you think I could get away with calling any obviously bad behaviour associated with femininity, "toxic femininity", at all? I don't think I could. It's widely considered by men to be an insulting term, and if people who use it don't want to insult people, they should pick another one. They don't though, which is telling.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Yeah, but just man up and handle it. That's non-toxic.
- john_fushi 5y ago
  Telling someone to "man up" is a telltale sign of toxic masculinity.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Why? Isn't it the opposite? Doesn't it refer to the best of what is masculine?
wwweston 5y ago
> I don't know anyone who believes this. Anyone who actually knows what adjectives are and how they work believes this. Or people familiar enough with the substance of the discussion to know it includes discussion of what healthy masculinity is. Here's an easy-to-digest example: https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused-about-the-difference-between-Q28CKMPT6 https://ifunny.co/picture/if-you-ever-find-yourself-confused... > Do you think I could get away with calling it "toxic femininity" instead? Nobody would let that pass. Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femininity-is-real-and-its-time-to-talk-about-it-1952023.html https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/women-vs-women-toxic-femini... https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-examples-of-toxic-femininity-we-dont-talk-about-enough/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2020/07/15-example... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/201908/toxic-femininity https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-ro... https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need-to-talk-about-toxic-femininity-at-work/?sh=495c48282769 https://www.forbes.com/sites/drnancydoyle/2021/07/13/we-need... https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-examples https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanschocket2/toxic-femininity-exam... https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under-addressed-gender-calamity/article_634951f6-81dd-11eb-b9ed-5b36414b3c16.html https://www.yesweekly.com/opinion/toxic-femininity-the-under... If you really think that femininity doesn't come under the microscope, then one can only assume you have no substantial familiarity with feminism.
- heurisko 5y ago
  > Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said for "toxic femininity". For example, the expectation of being the breadwinner of the family is said to be one of the things that is "rooted in a patriarchal culture, creat[ing] toxic masculinity". [1] What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity (and indeed is desirable to women), in addition to being the traditional one. If this expectation is cast only being a "toxic" one, then that is a confusing message for young men, and leaves them without what was one of the traditional motivation for going to college, and improving yourself, so that you can get a good job and better shoulder responsibility when you want to start a family. [1] https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-break-up-with-toxic-behaviour https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/2/compilation-b...

heurisko 5y ago

Yet, as there is only the narrative of "toxic masculinity" and not also discussion of "toxic femininity", the term implies masculinity can turn toxic in a way femininity can't. There is a Wikipedia page on toxic masculinity, but not one on toxic femininity (it redirects to "Internalised sexism"). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#%22Toxic_femininity%22 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#%22Toxic...

tayo42 5y ago

My first impulse is to agree but thinking about it more what positives are there to take away from masculinity. Is any feature of being masculine that is really desirable? I guess I think the whole idea of trying to be masculine to be kind of lame...

evilos 5y ago
There are plenty of positive traits that are associated with Masculinity: Bravery, Boldness, Self-Sufficiency, Discipline, Self-Assured, Skilled, Strong, etc. Of course this does not mean that these traits are somehow exclusive to or owned by Masculinity.
DasIch 5y ago
> Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods. Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity Much of that sounds positive to me. I think the toxicity primarily comes from people caring primarily about appearance. For example by trying to avoid being seen as weak or by trying to appear strong relative to other people by making them appear to be weak.

the_third_wave 5y ago

That might be the "theory" (a word which does some heavy lifting in venues infected by "critical theory") but in practice it comes down to straight males and traditional male virtues being "toxic".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic. I much the same way that “unusually large microbe” does not imply that microbes are generally unusually large. The “‘toxic masculinity’ means masculinity is uniformly toxic” thing is a reading so tendentious as to be incompatible with good faith.

lelanthran 5y ago

> The term “toxic masculinity” does not and is not intended to imply that masculinity itself is toxic. That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Do you have a link to a place "toxic masculinity" is used to describe a minority subset of the male population?

s5300 5y ago
> That's funny, really. I always only ever encounter it used by people who smear any and all masculinity as "toxic". Sounds like you've managed to get yourself living in quite the bubble/echo chamber. Go explore the world dude.
- blueflow 5y ago
  I'm unaware of any social circles use the term "toxic masculinity" and are not using it to smear men. People outside of those bubbles do not use the term at all, probably because its pretty offensive to males.

thinkingemote 5y ago

That's how it's used and understood though. I agree it was never intended to, but the reality is different. It should be dumped and a new term used.

teddyh 5y ago

This is another very good example of a ‘motte-and-bailey’ term. The term means whatever you want it to mean, at any given moment. When the term is attacked, it retreats to mean only the toxic parts of masculinity. When not attacked, it means the inherent toxicity of all masculinity.